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Old 11-18-2009, 12:09 PM   #211
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dp.
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Old 11-18-2009, 12:10 PM   #212
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i do think that AEON is correct -- marriage was about having children, not so much as a celebration of the sacredness of the heterosexual act (that was grafted onto it by religion in order to use notions of God to scare people), but to keep men from impregnating lots of women.

not much holds a society back more than having a surfeit of children that cannot be provided for.
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Old 11-18-2009, 12:11 PM   #213
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Actually, I wasn't addressing gay marriage directly in this above post – only addressing the question of “difference” and raising the possibility that this difference had more biological value before modern science since it was critical to the survival of the species.
See below:

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Originally Posted by Vincent Vega View Post
I think that sentence speaks to the apparent view that both homosexuality and heterosexuality are a choice. For, if both weren't a choice, society, or the government, could never encourage or discourage either one. Except for, maybe, making homosexuals hide their true identity and agree into heterosexual relationships. Which, very sadly, is the case in reality all too often.
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If we're to follow the "continuation of th species" logic, then infertile couples should also not be allowed to marry, since they cannot biologically reproduce.

Nevermind the fact that your argument contains it's own rebuttal (modern science), ignores reality (child rearing is not a requirement of marriage and there are many more things in marriage that are beneficial to society than merely procreation) and again dodges the real question.
Can you answer these questions for me, AEON: do you think that homosexuality is a choice?

And, if so, do you think that by allowing gay marriage, it would encourage others, such as myself, to say 'hey, gays can marry now! Why don't I find myself a nice man to settle down with?'"
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Old 11-18-2009, 12:15 PM   #214
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and again dodges the real question.
Again, the only question I was addressing above was that of difference. I used Irvine's accepted definition of a male and female to demonstrate that there is at least a biological difference between heterosexual couples and homosexual couples. For some reason, it seems difficult for all of us to get past this point before continuing the discussion.
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Old 11-18-2009, 12:22 PM   #215
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See below:





Can you answer these questions for me, AEON: do you think that homosexuality is a choice?
I would like to reserve this question for later, because it is a good one and I think it deserves more attention than I can give it right now.

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And, if so, do you think that by allowing gay marriage, it would encourage others, such as myself, to say 'hey, gays can marry now! Why don't I find myself a nice man to settle down with?'"
Ultimately, as you may or may not know - I have come to the conclusion that the state should have nothing to do with marriage.
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Old 11-18-2009, 12:32 PM   #216
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Ultimately, as you may or may not know - I have come to the conclusion that the state should have nothing to do with marriage.
You did not answer the question.

Please answer the question.
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Old 11-18-2009, 01:25 PM   #217
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I would like to reserve this question for later, because it is a good one and I think it deserves more attention than I can give it right now.


couldn't you just ask a gay person as to whether or not they chose to be gay?
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Old 11-18-2009, 01:35 PM   #218
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We are a modern society. The "continuation of the species" argument really doesn't apply anymore. We have advanced medicine, technology, laws, governments, etc. We no longer follow those basic rules regarding reproduction and survival. It's not like we're not barbarians on the verge of extinction or anything like that.

Therefore, our focus is now more on rights and equality, rather than "survival of the species," because, face it, our survival as a race by reproduction really isn't much of a relevant issue anymore. In fact, it's probably the opposite now that we're stuck with overpopulation. Anyways, even if it were to be somewhat of an issue, gay marriage is not something that is too huge on scale. Even if our "survival as a species" was threatened by reproduction rates, the gay population wouldn't make much of a difference. And as someone before pointed out, gay couples may be beneficial in that sense by adopting and raising children (and no, the idea that that is somehow detrimental to the children is only an assumption).
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Old 11-18-2009, 02:29 PM   #219
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AEON/INDY/whoever -- why do you think there are gay people?
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Old 11-18-2009, 02:56 PM   #220
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Ultimately, as you may or may not know - I have come to the conclusion that the state should have nothing to do with marriage.
Which allows more choice for churches to marry who they want, which honestly negates any real meaning or importance you ever gave to any previous arguments you had against. For now you're basically saying well if I can't be the only ones to reap such benefits then no one can. Plus you open a whole new set up legal headaches for couples and families.
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Old 11-18-2009, 03:56 PM   #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AEON View Post
Again, the only question I was addressing above was that of difference. I used Irvine's accepted definition of a male and female to demonstrate that there is at least a biological difference between heterosexual couples and homosexual couples. For some reason, it seems difficult for all of us to get past this point before continuing the discussion.
Oh come on, AEON, we're smarter than that and so are you. We all know there is a biological difference. Shocking as it may seem, none of us were trying to say that there is no biological difference between a penis and a vagina, or different combinations thereof. That was never in question. Both you and I know that what you chose to respond to was not in any way the real question that Irvine was posing to you. Hence the conclusion that you're dodging the real question, which has been asked numerous times this thread, and which you've yet to directly answer.
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Old 11-18-2009, 04:40 PM   #222
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Can I request that AEON respond to the rest of the questions under the assumption that marriage will continue to be recognized by the government? I'm getting so sick of the "Well, personally, I think NO ONE should marry" dodge. No. No. That's not going to happen, so just stop it.
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Old 11-18-2009, 04:52 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
AEON/INDY/whoever -- why do you think there are gay people?
I'm not sure what causation has to do with the conversation at hand, but I read an interview with Terrance Dean a few years ago and found this quote fascinating:

I had not had a desire or thought of being with another man until I was molested by the male next-door neighbor. An incident helped spark, I would say, or created an opening for me to start questioning or start experimenting. ~ Terrance Dean, author, when asked whether he believes homosexuality is a choice.
Guess Who's Gay in Hip-Hop - TIME

To be fair, he says he doesn't think it's a choice, but his own experience negates a belief that it was innate in him; he may be still processing his own sexual identity, but I find it telling that he points to this incident as the formative one in his sexual journey.

I don't quote Terrance to perpetuate a stereotype that abuse is a/the primary cause of homosexuality, as I don't think that's true. I only quote him to illustrate the fact that there may be an abundance of reasons/causes for homosexuality, and in the absence of a demonstrated gay gene, such causes may be biological, chemical, sociological, etc. If one believes in the spectrum of sexuality, then there are those who are going to be at opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of sexual expression, and then there will be those who are in flux.

But I still don't know what it has to do with this conversation...
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Old 11-18-2009, 04:53 PM   #224
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That's all he's ever done is dodge, he's very transparent. He may be more polite than others at times, but he's still as transparent.
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Old 11-18-2009, 04:57 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post
I'm not sure what causation has to do with the conversation at hand, but I read an interview with Terrance Dean a few years ago and found this quote fascinating:

I had not had a desire or thought of being with another man until I was molested by the male next-door neighbor. An incident helped spark, I would say, or created an opening for me to start questioning or start experimenting. ~ Terrance Dean, author, when asked whether he believes homosexuality is a choice.
Guess Who's Gay in Hip-Hop - TIME

To be fair, he says he doesn't think it's a choice, but his own experience negates a belief that it was innate in him; he may be still processing his own sexual identity, but I find it telling that he points to this incident as the formative one in his sexual journey.

I don't quote Terrance to perpetuate a stereotype that abuse is a/the primary cause of homosexuality, as I don't think that's true. I only quote him to illustrate the fact that there may be an abundance of reasons/causes for homosexuality, and in the absence of a demonstrated gay gene, such causes may be biological, chemical, sociological, etc. If one believes in the spectrum of sexuality, then there are those who are going to be at opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of sexual expression, and then there will be those who are in flux.

But I still don't know what it has to do with this conversation...




gay kids are far more likely to be sexually abused.

i understand the broader point here, that sexuality is a complex thing, but you also realize the extremely dangerous ground you're treading here -- sexual abuse turns you gay?

i'm going to take a moment and digest before i pursue this further, if at all.
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