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Old 04-08-2009, 06:21 PM   #106
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Conservatives are for change and reform.
It's funny you should redefine conservative like that.


Anyway, I was slogging through an extra-long chapter just now, reading about the spread of democracy in Europe in the early twentieth century, and it occurred to me that as much as these conservatives are always shouting about the "tradition" of marriage for the last 2500 years, and how they should be allowed to vote on the marriages of complete strangers, the "tradition" of being allowed to vote on anything is only about 100 years old for most of these conservatives. Most of them wouldn't have been allowed to vote on anything at all at the turn of the last century.

Somehow I find that ironic.
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Old 04-08-2009, 07:24 PM   #107
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Indy, I understand where you're coming from. But when you get right down to it, the marriage contract is just a piece of paper recognized by the state. It doesn't need to be blessed by my church, or your church, or even the Bible. Each one of us attaches our own values to the contract.

Whether it's between a man and a woman, or simply two consenting adults....it really has no impact on my own personal affairs. I don't think we should necessarily ban social contracts that might make you and I uncomfortable.


Life really is too short to rain on someone else's parade. Even if it's a tacky gay pride parade.
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Old 04-08-2009, 07:27 PM   #108
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Funny way to make that point.

Conservatives are for change and reform. Not the change for change's sake, tradition is shit, worry about the consequences later kind of change. But prudent, informed change. Change that improves society--thus preserving it.

If I thought redefining marriage would improve society I would favor it.
So you get veto over other peoples liberties, you are only reinforcing the false stereotype that Martha is promoting.
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Old 04-08-2009, 07:35 PM   #109
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Then maybe it isn't as false as we'd hoped?
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Old 04-08-2009, 10:14 PM   #110
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I don't think we should necessarily ban social contracts that might make you and I uncomfortable.


but what about marriage being natural, eternal, 5,000 years of tradition, etc.

also, what's the source of discomfort? doesn't the presence of discomfort indicate that there's something wrong, but more likely with the one who is feeling discomfort? it reminds me of a time in college when someone had put a porno on -- this was back in the days of VHS -- and there was one scene with a black man and a white woman, and someone walked out of the room because that particular scene made him uncomfortable.

he had the problem, did he not?
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Old 04-08-2009, 10:39 PM   #111
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i think the point is that tradition also gave us racism, sexism, slavery, genocide, etc. that while tradition is nice and can be looked to in order to give some a sense of structure, meaning, and purpose, deference to tradition simply because it's tradition is little more than a Flat Earth way of viewing the world.

we burned witches at the stake out of tradition.
Funny to have a big Israel supporter lecturing about things like racism and slavery and genocide.

But leaving that aside, what you've done here is exaggerrate to a ridiculous extent, so that opposing legal change to mandate gay marriage upon states where the majority of citizens don't want it legalised, is, apparently, equivalent to burning witches - i.e. committing murder - for the sake of preserving tradition.

It's a bit like a homophobe blaming all gays for the murders committed by Jeffrey Dahmer.
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Old 04-08-2009, 10:43 PM   #112
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The sad thing is, if Jesus walked into the average American Evangelical mega-church today, they'd kick him out for being too "radical".
that isn't true




Jesus would get a plane ride

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Old 04-08-2009, 10:43 PM   #113
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Funny to have a big Israel supporter lecturing about things like racism and slavery and genocide.

funny to have a Hamas sympathizer make this comparison.



Quote:
But leaving that aside, what you've done here is exaggerrate to a ridiculous extent, so that opposing legal change to mandate gay marriage upon states where the majority of citizens don't want it legalised, is, apparently, equivalent to burning witches - i.e. committing murder - for the sake of preserving tradition.
no, it's more equivalent to the terrible, terrible, unelected, unaccountable judges who imposed interracial marriage on the Commonwealth of Virginia in 1967.

the burning witches at the stake point was in direct regards to the selective application of "tradition" -- generally speaking, conservatives call upon tradition whenever it best serves to solidify existing power structures and maintain the status quo.


Quote:
It's a bit like a homophobe blaming all gays for the murders committed by Jeffrey Dahmer.

can i blame all gay bashings on straights?
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Old 04-08-2009, 10:53 PM   #114
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But leaving that aside, what you've done here is exaggerrate to a ridiculous extent, so that opposing legal change to mandate gay marriage upon states where the majority of citizens don't want it legalised, is, apparently, equivalent to burning witches - i.e. committing murder - for the sake of preserving tradition.

It's a bit like a homophobe blaming all gays for the murders committed by Jeffrey Dahmer.

Unsuprisingly you missed the point by miles...
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Old 04-08-2009, 10:59 PM   #115
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funny to have a Hamas sympathizer make this comparison.
From my perspective, it's just disappointing to see someone who has made very, very good posts completely annihilating the case for war in Iraq - and the prosecution of that war - then turn around and label critics of Israeli policies as Hamas sympathizers. It's just disappointing and seems to me inconsistent with your other posts....but we digress.

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the burning witches at the stake point was in direct regards to the selective application of "tradition" -- generally speaking, conservatives call upon tradition whenever it best serves to solidify existing power structures and maintain the status quo.
But this is a complete value judgement. It is no more or less valid than a right winger saying 'generally speaking, leftists call upon violent revolution to overthrow tradition whenever it best serves their agenda to get rid of existing power structures and the status quo.' It doesn't really tell us anything about the conservative point of view - in much the same way as a Fox News talking head claiming that all leftwingers support the Stalinist purges tell us anything about what leftwing thought really represents.

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can i blame all gay bashings on straights?
You can certainly blame it on institutionalised homophobia, and you'd probably have a very legitimate point in so doing.
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Old 04-08-2009, 11:05 PM   #116
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I'm sorry but in all honesty I've never seen anything truly informed when it comes to this issue from the conservative side, and that's not bias speaking, because I can acknowledge when I see informed opposition, I just have never seen it concerning this issue.
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Old 04-08-2009, 11:10 PM   #117
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It's funny you should redefine conservative like that.


Anyway, I was slogging through an extra-long chapter just now, reading about the spread of democracy in Europe in the early twentieth century, and it occurred to me that as much as these conservatives are always shouting about the "tradition" of marriage for the last 2500 years, and how they should be allowed to vote on the marriages of complete strangers, the "tradition" of being allowed to vote on anything is only about 100 years old for most of these conservatives. Most of them wouldn't have been allowed to vote on anything at all at the turn of the last century.

Somehow I find that ironic.
What were leftwingers were advocating for in the same period and what did it lead to?
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Old 04-08-2009, 11:10 PM   #118
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Yes, but they would not be the opposition on this issue.
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Old 04-08-2009, 11:15 PM   #119
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Tradition is something celebrated on college campuses or within families, it has absolutely no place in law and equality.

What is so hard about that to understand?
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Old 04-08-2009, 11:28 PM   #120
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Tradition is something celebrated on college campuses or within families, it has absolutely no place in law and equality.

What is so hard about that to understand?
You are advocating your own personal preference as a basis for jurisprudence, because for some reason that I don't quite understand, you advocate change for change's sake ahead of building on well worn paths and learned experience in human society. (I am making a general point here, so don't, if you please, respond by misconstruing my post as claiming the case for gay marriage is just change for change's sake.)

It's pure nonsense to say tradition has no place outside of college campuses and families.
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