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You are advocating your own personal preference as a basis for jurisprudence, because for some reason that I don't quite understand, you advocate change for change's sake ahead of building on well worn paths and learned experience in human society. (I am making a general point here, so don't, if you please, respond by misconstruing my post as claiming the case for gay marriage is just change for change's sake.)

It's pure nonsense to say tradition has no place outside of college campuses and families.


I honestly have clue what you are talking about... Giving homosexuals equal rights is change for change sake? You said don't do this, but honestly what else am I suppose to get from this post?

I guess what I am trying to say is show me a legitimate law that is based purely on tradition and I'll show you a flawed law.

Where does tradition play a role in law? Please tell me.
 
You are advocating your own personal preference as a basis for jurisprudence, because for some reason that I don't quite understand, you advocate change for change's sake ahead of building on well worn paths and learned experience in human society. (I am making a general point here, so don't, if you please, respond by misconstruing my post as claiming the case for gay marriage is just change for change's sake.)

It's pure nonsense to say tradition has no place outside of college campuses and families.



you've got it all backwards.

the argument put forth is that someone's personal discomfort is a reason to override or amend jurisprudence. the courts exist for a reason. what happened in California was a perfect example of the tyranny of the majority and how fast and loose constitutional amendments can be used to deny basic rights to minorities.
 
I think tradition can and does play a role in informing jurisprudence to a degree. Of course we are free to discard it as it becomes irrelevant in a progressive society.

A swing on the progressive scale should not be a mindless discarding of tradition, however, and that sort of attitude probably does not help the cause. It is quite possible that in certain areas of law, it is true that an "ideal" may exist, or if not an ideal, then a situation that is "better" or "preferred" to other situations. It could be that the traditional situation is the better one in some cases. BUT if you want to make that argument, then you need to bolster it with something other than "this is how it has always been."

For example, in the area of family law, and particularly adoption, it may very well be true that a two-parent home is preferred. You can probably find multiple, credible sociological studies to reinforce that fact. So in that sense, perhaps tradition is symbiotic with the law, but it does not mean that it is the only or exclusive way. And the fact that the traditional family set up has its benefits does not mean that we are relying on tradition to shape our law, we are merely admitting that social studies indicate that this may be the case in this one example.

Anyway, I have rambled, but just as tradition shouldn't shape our law, it doesn't mean that it doesn't inform it (surely it does, anybody who's read case law knows as much).
 
I agree 100% with your post anitram, maybe I just prefer the word precedent to tradition.

Tradition to me implies the beginnings to be more of accident or randomness than precedent does.
 
laws aside, it seems to me that another focal point in this discussion is that some people seem to be upset that the public expression of homophobia religion might now carry with it a stigma that's akin to racism and sexism.

i can see why that would be upsetting to someone who feels as if he has a principled stand against marriage equality that has nothing to do with bigotry and everything to do with freedom of religious expression and whatever anti-judiciary viewpoint he's espousing.

but he must also deal with it. people under 35 view laws and attitudes that harm gay people as bad things pushed on society by likewise bad people. you're free to argue with the kids, because this is a free society, but you're not free to get to have your beliefs go unchallenged and/or codified into law.

i know it's tough for a certain breed of Christian to suddenly find himself disapproved of by mainstream society -- since now a majority of Americans endorse either gay marriage or gay civil unions, two things outright condemned in that NRO piece -- but don't worry. gays have been disapproved of by mainstream society for a long, long time, and look at how well we're doing now! you'll survive some cultural disapproval, i just know it.
 
freedom of religious expression and whatever anti-judiciary viewpoint
And gender essentialism; the notion that permitting a contract symbolically associated with cultural sanction to same-sex couples is lethal poison to society, because it implicitly rejects the claim that children raised in such a household are doomed to be morally, spiritually and developmentally stunted for not having grown up intimately exposed to both the 'feminine' and 'masculine' natures, which reputedly only having both a mother and a father at home can provide.

One thing I found quite interesting about the Iowa decision was how the Court reviewed the given justifications for Iowa's same-sex marriage ban and repeatedly pointed out where in practice the law had the effect of uniquely singling out same-sex couples for penalization on these grounds, therefore it was unjust.
 
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New York Gov. David Paterson (D) today said that he plans to re-introduce legislation making same-sex marriage legal in the state. “We’ll put a bill out and let the people decide one way or the other,” Paterson told WHCU-AM in Ithaca. In 2007, then-governor Eliot Spitzer introduced similar legislation, but it stalled in the Republican-controlled Senate. The state Senate is now controlled by Democrats but “still appears a few votes shy from having the 32 votes needed for passage.” New York state currently recognizes same-sex marriages performed legally in other states.


ATHENS, Ga. (AP) - Former Republican House Speaker Newt Gingrich said Tuesday that a recent Iowa Supreme Court decision to legalize gay marriage was “outrageously wrong,“ but called a legislative override that made it legal in Vermont “healthier.“

Gingrich, who has been mentioned as a possible Republican presidential contender in 2012, spoke after wrapping up a class he has been teaching on the judicial system at the University of Georgia’s law school.

Gingrich said he sees the beginning of a “major movement” to bring the judicial branch into check in the wake of last Friday’s Iowa Supreme Court decision. The ruling said a state law limiting marriage to a man and a woman violates the constitutional rights of equal protection.

“It’s the height of judicial arrogance,“ Gingrich said. “You have seven lawyers who have decided, on their own, to fundamentally change Iowa.“

Gingrich’s remarks came on the same day Vermont’s Legislature voted to legalize gay marriage, becoming the fourth state to recognize the same sex unions and the first to do so through a vote of the Legislature. The others are Massachusetts, Connecticut and Iowa. Vermont’s process, Gingrich said, was “healthier.“

“The people of Vermont have every right to elect the legislators they want and if they disagree with this decision they have every right to replace them and so it is the people’s branch overriding the governor, who’s elected, and it’s not an isolated imposition by the elite.“

He added: “Even for people who don’t agree with the outcome, it’s a much better process.“
 
And gender essentialism; the notion that permitting a contract symbolically associated with cultural sanction to same-sex couples is lethal poison to society, because it implicitly rejects the claim that children raised in such a household are doomed to be morally, spiritually and developmentally stunted for not having grown up intimately exposed to both the 'feminine' and 'masculine' natures, which reputedly only having both a mother and a father at home can provide.

One thing I found quite interesting about the Iowa decision was how the Court reviewed the given justifications for Iowa's same-sex marriage ban and repeatedly pointed out where in practice the law had the effect of uniquely singling out same-sex couples for penalization on these grounds, therefore it was unjust.


i agree. setting aside the fact that many married people do not have children, i've never understood why, if gender and gender-roles are so timeless and rooted in nature and god-given, they must be protected at all costs.

if we have 5,000 years of tradition and what not, wouldn't you think said institutions probably would survive allowing 5% of the population to have access to said institution?
 
He added: “Even for people who don’t agree with the outcome, it’s a much better process.“



i agree with Newt here. it does give the Right less breathing room if it goes through the legislature. that is the best way to go for the movement as a whole, no question.
 
He's on marriage #3 now, right?



so he has at least 3 different children from each of those marriages, yes?

because the sole function of marriage is to civilize heterosexual sex and direct it into the breeding and raising of children, yes?

yes?
 
Tradition is something celebrated on college campuses or within families, it has absolutely no place in law and equality.

I would call precedent, or more accurately stare decisis, the legal term for "tradition."

Doesn't mean the law should never change, but like tradition, precedent provides stability, predictability and continuity. Tradition should certainly be challenged from time to time but not scoffed at or dismissed out-of-hand.
 
Seems to me that no one who scoffs at tradition or dismisses it out-of-hand would likely be looking to get married in the first place.
 
I would call precedent, or more accurately stare decisis, the legal term for "tradition."

Doesn't mean the law should never change, but like tradition, precedent provides stability, predictability and continuity. Tradition should certainly be challenged from time to time but not scoffed at or dismissed out-of-hand.

Well I still see a big difference in the two. And just like change for change sake, tradition for tradition sake is something that should be scoffed at when it comes to the law.

Precedent provides patterns and justification, it may not always be right but it does have reason behind it.

Tradition is more ceremonial, the passing on of statements or customs.

But that being said, even if it is precedent you are speaking of, you still have failed time and time again as to why if the tradition or precedent were changed how it would effect you or society.

So I ask again, how long will it take of Iowa not imploding(or whatever it is you are scared of) for you to change your stance on this tradition?
 
evidently, though, "tradition" flies out the window when it comes to torture.

i guess it's easier and better to facilitate hate rather than love?
 
Precedent provides patterns and justification, it may not always be right but it does have reason behind it.

You mean like legal precedent? Like Baker V. Nelson or Hernandez v. Robles (which consolidated several other legal cases as well). Or...

But that being said, even if it is precedent you are speaking of, you still have failed time and time again as to why if the tradition or precedent were changed how it would effect you or society.

You mean things like the time-honored and Constitutionally-protected principles of freedom of speech and religion?

Faith groups losing gay rights fights - Washington Post- msnbc.com

* A Christian photographer was forced by the New Mexico Civil Rights Commission to pay $6,637 in attorney's costs after she refused to photograph a gay couple's commitment ceremony.
* A psychologist in Georgia was fired after she declined for religious reasons to counsel a lesbian about her relationship.
* Christian fertility doctors in California who refused to artificially inseminate a lesbian patient were barred by the state Supreme Court from invoking their religious beliefs in refusing treatment.
* A Christian student group was not recognized at a University of California law school because it denies membership to anyone practicing sex outside of traditional marriage.

To say nothing of Catholic adoption agencies forced to close in Boston, parents put in jail for refusing to allow their kids to learn about same-sex marriage, etc.
 
As disgustingly hateful, yes I said it because I feel that it's true, as the attitudes of your martyrs are I think that they generally have the right to practice their beliefs.

But the cases are without context, and I would potentially support some of them (for instance I would have a problem with my student union fees being given to a bigotry group).

Your freedom of religious bigotry does not extend to public services or an expectation of respect from private organisations, by all means follow your God and hate the sinning which gays commit (by virtue of being both gay and sexual) but don't expect the rest of us to push it with public funds.

I support freedom of speech and freedom of religion, part of that is that I don't want my tax dollars supporting sectarian religions which I fundamentally disagree (for that reason I find the idea of moving to the United States to be perfectly fine, I respect your secular tradition), it would be no different if I was a Jew or a Christian, I don't think the state should have any role imposing the beliefs of any particular religion on the population.

You foster a one way street where Christianity gets unique protection against non-Religious public policy, now given the plurality of faiths and non-faiths in your Country it makes practical sense for the state to give no favour to any one religion, but it seems you cant hack it, and insist on crying discrimination against Christians (by Secularists or Atheists apparently) while actually preaching discrimination, it is a revolting attitude. I may have my objections to religion but I recognise that secularism protects my unbelief as much as belief and I respect the diversity of beliefs (I don't want to ban religions, I don't want to discriminate against those I disagree with - unless they are child abusers or causing harm), you on the other hand support discrimination against homosexuals on the basis of your religious beliefs and cultural attitudes, and actively foster a discriminatory attitude but couch it in terms of tradition and morality.

Your attitude is bigoted and doesn't deserve any recognition, if you feel this dismissal is unfair then please appreciate a fraction of what it is like to have your strong feelings denied, call it reciprocity.
 
You mean like legal precedent?
Did you see the context behind that post?

You mean things like the time-honored and Constitutionally-protected principles of freedom of speech and religion?
How would two women getting married effect your freedom of speech or religion? Those examples below do not show this... Please give me a real answer.

* A Christian photographer was forced by the New Mexico Civil Rights Commission to pay $6,637 in attorney's costs after she refused to photograph a gay couple's commitment ceremony.
I don't get this one. Photographers are paid by contract, I would have to know the story behind this one...

* A psychologist in Georgia was fired after she declined for religious reasons to counsel a lesbian about her relationship.
So this psychologist only signed on to fix straight relationships? Does she refuse those that are having sex outside of marriage... I sure hope so, otherwise she's just a hypocrite.

* Christian fertility doctors in California who refused to artificially inseminate a lesbian patient were barred by the state Supreme Court from invoking their religious beliefs in refusing treatment.
What is a "Christian fertiltity doctor", doesn't he know only God can help those to procreate? Why is he playing God? I hope he screens all his clients and makes sure they are perfect straight married for life Christians.

* A Christian student group was not recognized at a University of California law school because it denies membership to anyone practicing sex outside of traditional marriage.
How did this Christian group screen this? I knew a lot of Christians in college having pre-marital sex...

To say nothing of Catholic adoption agencies forced to close in Boston, parents put in jail for refusing to allow their kids to learn about same-sex marriage, etc.
Oh noes, we have to learn something? Do they learn that sometimes mommy and daddy don't stay married for life?
 
Nathan's right, guys. If a doctor doesn't want to inseminate lesbians Negroes because it's against his religion, why should he have to?

And how dare we judge Octamom or her doctor.

Now, if your school district made you start teaching "Creationism" or worse, "American Exceptionalism," you'd go right along with it because you're just there to teach the curriculum and not your personal beliefs, right?
 
Now, if your school district made you start teaching "Creationism" or worse, "American Exceptionalism," you'd go right along with it because you're just there to teach the curriculum and not your personal beliefs, right?

A-HA! You don't have me on ignore! You just won't answer the difficult questions.

:tsk:

Too bad.

When "Creationism" is real science, then we'll talk.

I do take an oath to uphold the Constitution, though. A document that just keeps getting in your way, doesn't it? :sexywink:
 
people under 35 view laws and attitudes that harm gay people as bad things pushed on society by likewise bad people. you're free to argue with the kids, because this is a free society, but you're not free to get to have your beliefs go unchallenged and/or codified into law.

The Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey found that 53 percent of Americans say capitalism is better, while 20 percent said they believe that socialism is the better system. Twenty-seven percent of respondents said they are not sure which is better.

The poll found that adults under 30 are evenly divided on which system is better, while adults over 40 strongly favor capitalism.
Are the "kids" equally correct in their economic beliefs?
 
And how dare we judge Octamom or her doctor.

Considering that this is an issue of healthcare regulation and possible medical negligence, I don't see what on earth it has to do with what we're talking about. Really silly example.
 
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