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Old 04-10-2009, 10:30 PM   #166
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The above story posted by Anitram is sad but but it is also frankly not relevant to the thread, it is not relevant to the issue of gay marriage, it is not even particularly relevant to the issue of gay rights in a broader sense - it has more to do with the issue of bullying in schools.
I completely disagree.

Children who think it is acceptable to call other children "fags" and the like learned that this is acceptable somewhere - be it in their homes from their parents or in the broader community. Much like a child who would hurl racial or anti-semitic slurs probably learned that behaviour somewhere.

And I absolutely think that homophobic groups, like that National Organization for Marriage which put that awful infamous ad (which has been pretty much discredited on every level) out the other day, foster this type of attitude.

YouTube - National Organization for Marriage - Gathering Storm
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Old 04-11-2009, 04:00 AM   #167
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do you not realize that progress with respect to gay marriage is inevitable?
This is not in doubt. However, when we are going to make a significant shift in terms of a cultural value, we need to think through the various ramifications that such a change will have. I am unwilling to sacrifice core democratic principles (freedom to vote ones' conscience without harassment, for example, to say nothing of the right to freedom of speech or freedom of religion) for anyone's (real or perceived) rights, no matter how loudly they may shout. When gay marriage becomes legal at both the state and federal level, it is my hope that it will happen in the larger context of a democratic society that protects the principles upon which that society was founded.
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Old 04-11-2009, 07:59 AM   #168
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And I absolutely think that homophobic groups, like that National Organization for Marriage which put that awful infamous ad (which has been pretty much discredited on every level) out the other day, foster this type of attitude.
How do these people sleep at night?
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Old 04-11-2009, 09:08 AM   #169
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This is not in doubt. However, when we are going to make a significant shift in terms of a cultural value, we need to think through the various ramifications that such a change will have. I am unwilling to sacrifice core democratic principles (freedom to vote ones' conscience without harassment, for example, to say nothing of the right to freedom of speech or freedom of religion) for anyone's (real or perceived) rights, no matter how loudly they may shout. When gay marriage becomes legal at both the state and federal level, it is my hope that it will happen in the larger context of a democratic society that protects the principles upon which that society was founded.
It is a civil liberties issue, the state shouldn't be imposing an unjust sexual morality in granting marriage rights, equal rights may go against the will of the mob, but opposing gay marriage is taking a stand against liberty.
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Old 04-11-2009, 11:38 AM   #170
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This is not in doubt. However, when we are going to make a significant shift in terms of a cultural value, we need to think through the various ramifications that such a change will have. I am unwilling to sacrifice core democratic principles (freedom to vote ones' conscience without harassment, for example, to say nothing of the right to freedom of speech or freedom of religion) for anyone's (real or perceived) rights, no matter how loudly they may shout.
Then you should probably rest easy knowing that your northern neighbours were one of the first states to legalize gay marriage and so far nobody has burst into flames, and there has been no discernible armaggedon that has followed.
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Old 04-11-2009, 12:07 PM   #171
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Then you should probably rest easy knowing that your northern neighbours were one of the first states to legalize gay marriage and so far nobody has burst into flames, and there has been no discernible armaggedon that has followed.

And have any Christians been fed to the lions?
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Old 04-11-2009, 12:15 PM   #172
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And have any Christians been fed to the lions?
A handful to the polar bears but nothing statistically significant.
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Old 04-11-2009, 01:28 PM   #173
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A handful to the polar bears but nothing statistically significant.

Ahhh. So no one's been "jailed" for "hate speech" or refusing to subject their children to the queer agenda?
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Old 04-11-2009, 03:26 PM   #174
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(freedom to vote ones' conscience without harassment, for example, to say nothing of the right to freedom of speech or freedom of religion)

Maybe if you repeat this enough it might come true. Seriously, you keep saying it but you have never produced any evidence how gay marriage conflicts with your freedom of speech or religion. I challenge you to produce evidence otherwise this phrase you keep using become completely useless.
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Old 04-11-2009, 03:30 PM   #175
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This is not in doubt. However, when we are going to make a significant shift in terms of a cultural value, we need to think through the various ramifications that such a change will have. I am unwilling to sacrifice core democratic principles (freedom to vote ones' conscience without harassment, for example, to say nothing of the right to freedom of speech or freedom of religion) for anyone's (real or perceived) rights, no matter how loudly they may shout. When gay marriage becomes legal at both the state and federal level, it is my hope that it will happen in the larger context of a democratic society that protects the principles upon which that society was founded.
So, in summary, you want to prevent gays from attaining their rights because you want to teach those who support gay marriage about a lesson in attitude? That's what it seems like: that, while you know it's inevitable, you don't want it yet because you think the attitude of those supporting it is more anti-democratic than a denial of rights.
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Old 04-11-2009, 05:31 PM   #176
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Seriously, you keep saying it but you have never produced any evidence how gay marriage conflicts with your freedom of speech or religion. I challenge you to produce evidence otherwise this phrase you keep using become completely useless.
You mean besides people being fired in CA for their position on Prop 8? (I'm pretty sure harassment because of a private vote goes against democratic principles.) Or perhaps the attempt by Prop 8 opponents to declare a legally-passed ballot initiative illegal because they disagree with it after the fact? (I'm pretty sure that voter disenfranchisement goes against core democratic principles.) Or targeting ethnic minorities because of their stance on Prop 8? (I'm pretty sure racism goes against core democratic principles.)

Or perhaps you would prefer my personal stories of harassment by Prop 8 opponents to me and my family? (I'm pretty sure politics of fear and intimidation go against core democratic principles too.)

To say nothing of Catholic charities being forced to shut down in MA, or the other points that the article on MSNBC raised.

I have said it before and I'll say it again. I have no doubt that gay marriage will eventually be ruled legal. If it is, so be it. But it's going to happen the right way, respecting the larger and far more significant democratic principles that undergird this great nation.
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Old 04-11-2009, 05:37 PM   #177
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But it's going to happen the right way, respecting the larger and far more significant democratic principles that undergird this great nation.
"it's going to happen when fearful straight people are good and ready, since we still hold the majority."
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Old 04-11-2009, 06:23 PM   #178
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You mean besides people being fired in CA for their position on Prop 8? (I'm pretty sure harassment because of a private vote goes against democratic principles.) Or perhaps the attempt by Prop 8 opponents to declare a legally-passed ballot initiative illegal because they disagree with it after the fact? (I'm pretty sure that voter disenfranchisement goes against core democratic principles.) Or targeting ethnic minorities because of their stance on Prop 8? (I'm pretty sure racism goes against core democratic principles.)
But none of this is gay marriage = infringing my freedom of speech or religion. Do you not understand that? You have been saying gay marriage = infringing my freedom of speech or religion.

These are cases of people doing stupid things over political disagreements.

That would be like me saying the Iraq war infringes on my free speech, due to all the stories we heard of gross abuse of power from those that did support the war.

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Or perhaps you would prefer my personal stories of harassment by Prop 8 opponents to me and my family? (I'm pretty sure politics of fear and intimidation go against core democratic principles too.)
I'm sorry to hear that, but it's still not an example of gay marriage infringing upon your freedom of speech.


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To say nothing of Catholic charities being forced to shut down in MA, or the other points that the article on MSNBC raised.
Read above.

Once again you fail to make your point...
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Old 04-11-2009, 06:26 PM   #179
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I think the problem is that most people seem to have begun using some sort of vernacular meaning of "freedom of speech" which is largely, if not completely, divorced from the legal and constitutional concept of "freedom of speech." And so the phrase gets bandied about constantly, not just on this forum.
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Old 04-11-2009, 06:38 PM   #180
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Same with "voter disenfranchisement," apparently. And "freedom of religion."
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