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Old 04-09-2009, 11:26 AM   #136
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The real question is: Does he have kids children from his affairs?
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Old 04-09-2009, 03:09 PM   #137
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Tradition is something celebrated on college campuses or within families, it has absolutely no place in law and equality.
I would call precedent, or more accurately stare decisis, the legal term for "tradition."

Doesn't mean the law should never change, but like tradition, precedent provides stability, predictability and continuity. Tradition should certainly be challenged from time to time but not scoffed at or dismissed out-of-hand.
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Old 04-09-2009, 03:51 PM   #138
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Seems to me that no one who scoffs at tradition or dismisses it out-of-hand would likely be looking to get married in the first place.
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Old 04-09-2009, 05:40 PM   #139
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I would call precedent, or more accurately stare decisis, the legal term for "tradition."

Doesn't mean the law should never change, but like tradition, precedent provides stability, predictability and continuity. Tradition should certainly be challenged from time to time but not scoffed at or dismissed out-of-hand.
Well I still see a big difference in the two. And just like change for change sake, tradition for tradition sake is something that should be scoffed at when it comes to the law.

Precedent provides patterns and justification, it may not always be right but it does have reason behind it.

Tradition is more ceremonial, the passing on of statements or customs.

But that being said, even if it is precedent you are speaking of, you still have failed time and time again as to why if the tradition or precedent were changed how it would effect you or society.

So I ask again, how long will it take of Iowa not imploding(or whatever it is you are scared of) for you to change your stance on this tradition?
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Old 04-09-2009, 05:52 PM   #140
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evidently, though, "tradition" flies out the window when it comes to torture.

i guess it's easier and better to facilitate hate rather than love?
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Old 04-10-2009, 10:23 AM   #141
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Precedent provides patterns and justification, it may not always be right but it does have reason behind it.
You mean like legal precedent? Like Baker V. Nelson or Hernandez v. Robles (which consolidated several other legal cases as well). Or...

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But that being said, even if it is precedent you are speaking of, you still have failed time and time again as to why if the tradition or precedent were changed how it would effect you or society.
You mean things like the time-honored and Constitutionally-protected principles of freedom of speech and religion?

Faith groups losing gay rights fights - Washington Post- msnbc.com

* A Christian photographer was forced by the New Mexico Civil Rights Commission to pay $6,637 in attorney's costs after she refused to photograph a gay couple's commitment ceremony.
* A psychologist in Georgia was fired after she declined for religious reasons to counsel a lesbian about her relationship.
* Christian fertility doctors in California who refused to artificially inseminate a lesbian patient were barred by the state Supreme Court from invoking their religious beliefs in refusing treatment.
* A Christian student group was not recognized at a University of California law school because it denies membership to anyone practicing sex outside of traditional marriage.

To say nothing of Catholic adoption agencies forced to close in Boston, parents put in jail for refusing to allow their kids to learn about same-sex marriage, etc.
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Old 04-10-2009, 10:31 AM   #142
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[QUOTE=nathan1977;6079943]

You mean things like the time-honored and Constitutionally-protected principles of freedom of speech and religion?

And equal protection?
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Old 04-10-2009, 10:34 AM   #143
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As disgustingly hateful, yes I said it because I feel that it's true, as the attitudes of your martyrs are I think that they generally have the right to practice their beliefs.

But the cases are without context, and I would potentially support some of them (for instance I would have a problem with my student union fees being given to a bigotry group).

Your freedom of religious bigotry does not extend to public services or an expectation of respect from private organisations, by all means follow your God and hate the sinning which gays commit (by virtue of being both gay and sexual) but don't expect the rest of us to push it with public funds.

I support freedom of speech and freedom of religion, part of that is that I don't want my tax dollars supporting sectarian religions which I fundamentally disagree (for that reason I find the idea of moving to the United States to be perfectly fine, I respect your secular tradition), it would be no different if I was a Jew or a Christian, I don't think the state should have any role imposing the beliefs of any particular religion on the population.

You foster a one way street where Christianity gets unique protection against non-Religious public policy, now given the plurality of faiths and non-faiths in your Country it makes practical sense for the state to give no favour to any one religion, but it seems you cant hack it, and insist on crying discrimination against Christians (by Secularists or Atheists apparently) while actually preaching discrimination, it is a revolting attitude. I may have my objections to religion but I recognise that secularism protects my unbelief as much as belief and I respect the diversity of beliefs (I don't want to ban religions, I don't want to discriminate against those I disagree with - unless they are child abusers or causing harm), you on the other hand support discrimination against homosexuals on the basis of your religious beliefs and cultural attitudes, and actively foster a discriminatory attitude but couch it in terms of tradition and morality.

Your attitude is bigoted and doesn't deserve any recognition, if you feel this dismissal is unfair then please appreciate a fraction of what it is like to have your strong feelings denied, call it reciprocity.
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Old 04-10-2009, 10:46 AM   #144
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You mean like legal precedent?
Did you see the context behind that post?

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Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post
You mean things like the time-honored and Constitutionally-protected principles of freedom of speech and religion?
How would two women getting married effect your freedom of speech or religion? Those examples below do not show this... Please give me a real answer.

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* A Christian photographer was forced by the New Mexico Civil Rights Commission to pay $6,637 in attorney's costs after she refused to photograph a gay couple's commitment ceremony.
I don't get this one. Photographers are paid by contract, I would have to know the story behind this one...

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* A psychologist in Georgia was fired after she declined for religious reasons to counsel a lesbian about her relationship.
So this psychologist only signed on to fix straight relationships? Does she refuse those that are having sex outside of marriage... I sure hope so, otherwise she's just a hypocrite.

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* Christian fertility doctors in California who refused to artificially inseminate a lesbian patient were barred by the state Supreme Court from invoking their religious beliefs in refusing treatment.
What is a "Christian fertiltity doctor", doesn't he know only God can help those to procreate? Why is he playing God? I hope he screens all his clients and makes sure they are perfect straight married for life Christians.

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* A Christian student group was not recognized at a University of California law school because it denies membership to anyone practicing sex outside of traditional marriage.
How did this Christian group screen this? I knew a lot of Christians in college having pre-marital sex...

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To say nothing of Catholic adoption agencies forced to close in Boston, parents put in jail for refusing to allow their kids to learn about same-sex marriage, etc.
Oh noes, we have to learn something? Do they learn that sometimes mommy and daddy don't stay married for life?
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Old 04-10-2009, 11:05 AM   #145
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People get fired for not doing their job? Oh noez!!!1
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Old 04-10-2009, 11:34 AM   #146
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Nathan's right, guys. If a doctor doesn't want to inseminate lesbians Negroes because it's against his religion, why should he have to?
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Old 04-10-2009, 01:19 PM   #147
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Nathan's right, guys. If a doctor doesn't want to inseminate lesbians Negroes because it's against his religion, why should he have to?
And how dare we judge Octamom or her doctor.

Now, if your school district made you start teaching "Creationism" or worse, "American Exceptionalism," you'd go right along with it because you're just there to teach the curriculum and not your personal beliefs, right?
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Old 04-10-2009, 01:25 PM   #148
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Now, if your school district made you start teaching "Creationism" or worse, "American Exceptionalism," you'd go right along with it because you're just there to teach the curriculum and not your personal beliefs, right?
A-HA! You don't have me on ignore! You just won't answer the difficult questions.



Too bad.

When "Creationism" is real science, then we'll talk.

I do take an oath to uphold the Constitution, though. A document that just keeps getting in your way, doesn't it?
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Old 04-10-2009, 01:47 PM   #149
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people under 35 view laws and attitudes that harm gay people as bad things pushed on society by likewise bad people. you're free to argue with the kids, because this is a free society, but you're not free to get to have your beliefs go unchallenged and/or codified into law.
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The Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey found that 53 percent of Americans say capitalism is better, while 20 percent said they believe that socialism is the better system. Twenty-seven percent of respondents said they are not sure which is better.

The poll found that adults under 30 are evenly divided on which system is better, while adults over 40 strongly favor capitalism.
Are the "kids" equally correct in their economic beliefs?
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Old 04-10-2009, 01:48 PM   #150
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And how dare we judge Octamom or her doctor.
Considering that this is an issue of healthcare regulation and possible medical negligence, I don't see what on earth it has to do with what we're talking about. Really silly example.
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