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Old 06-23-2006, 06:53 PM   #106
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("You said this is a U2 site?? Well what the hell, why'm I bothering with all this fuckwit pilpul-varfing on the church sites then!")


well, not only are U2 fans better looking than your average rock fan, but we're smarter.



and i think it's interesting how this room is very much a reflection of the band's, and Bono's, public priorities -- religion, social justice, global inequality, individual rights. not that these things aren't popular topics for everybody, but i think we can clearly tell this is a room full of U2 fans (all the passion, all the pontificating, all the, yes, righteousness).

in some ways, it reminds me of why i became a fan in the first place -- they sang about things that mattered, there was so much at stake in their songs because they only sang about things that are at stake and under seige. and they think we can all be better, which is ultimately what dialogue should do -- produce a synethesis of information that might posit a better way forwards to a better future.
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Old 06-23-2006, 07:03 PM   #107
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I realize you weren't saying it wasn't wrong. But my point is that 20 30 years ago Christian Conservatives used the same cut and paste methods with scripture to oppose such marriages.

Could you identify the Scripture used in the "cut and paste method" 20 - 30 years ago?

Was there really a theological basis for their beliefs, or did they have their prejudices, and also claimed to be Christians?
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Old 06-23-2006, 07:05 PM   #108
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I come from a very conservative Christian background. So I know exactly where this is coming from. The problem is the church. They aren't teaching the context of the scriptures and they are telling you that you can take any verse and use it as truth. The truth is this couldn't be further from the truth. And the ugly truth is that the church doesn't want to teach the context or want you to research the context because deep down people oppose what they don't understand. And it's easier to make homosexuality a sin.
What about those who know the context of the Scriptures and come to the same or similar conclusions? Not the context you were looking for?
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Old 06-23-2006, 07:08 PM   #109
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What about those who know the context of the Scriptures and come to the same or similar conclusions? Not the context you were looking for?
I honestly don't know how that's possible. Because it would still require one to believe that man-made law somehow not man-made.
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Old 06-23-2006, 07:16 PM   #110
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I honestly don't know how that's possible. Because it would still require one to believe that man-made law somehow not man-made.


Are you suggesting that we color code Scripture of God's Word and man's word?
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Old 06-23-2006, 07:17 PM   #111
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Could you identify the Scripture used in the "cut and paste method" 20 - 30 years ago?


Deuteronomy 7 and Joshua 23:12-13 to name a couple.

I've seen it preached, it's discusting.
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Old 06-23-2006, 07:18 PM   #112
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Are you suggesting that we color code Scripture of God's Word and man's word?
It would make things a lot easier. Then you wouldn't have people quoting Leviticus all the time.
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Old 06-23-2006, 07:32 PM   #113
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Deuteronomy 7 and Joshua 23:12-13 to name a couple.

I've seen it preached, it's discusting.
I can't imagine hearing that from the pulpit.
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Old 06-23-2006, 07:34 PM   #114
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It would make things a lot easier. Then you wouldn't have people quoting Leviticus all the time.
What other books should we remove? I bet the abridged version will draw more followers.
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Old 06-23-2006, 07:38 PM   #115
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I can't imagine hearing that from the pulpit.
I didn't actually see it live, it was in a documentary. But still very disturbing...
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Old 06-23-2006, 07:41 PM   #116
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What other books should we remove? I bet the abridged version will draw more followers.
I'm not saying to remove it. I think it should be kept in for historical context.
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Old 06-23-2006, 08:45 PM   #117
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
Could you identify the Scripture used in the "cut and paste method" 20 - 30 years ago?

Was there really a theological basis for their beliefs, or did they have their prejudices, and also claimed to be Christians?
http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/interace.html

Basically, a lot of "Christians" misinterpreted prohibitions against interreligious marriages as prohibitions against interracial marriages.

It's not really much different, in my eyes, how a bunch of passages against archaic idolatrous sexual practices get misinterpreted as being prohibitions against all same-sex relations.

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Old 06-23-2006, 08:49 PM   #118
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This is true. I held your own beliefs for a long time (in fact, despite all I've said, I'm not sure I still don't. As I said I'm in flux but it appears moving away from the position you hold). I didn't consider myself a homophobe then, and it's quite clear that you do not feel yourself as having "hatred" towards homosexuals. I've made all the same arguements you've presented. And I think it's important for other posters to understand how sincere you are when you say that you genuinely are not a homophobe.
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Yes, they are...

Because there is so much evidence to prove this teaching is wrong...it shows that those who agree with it don't want to educate themselves. Why? Because they want it that way.
I've read this argument, and have found myself sympathetic to both arguments.

I think what it does come down to is not whether one is a bigot or not, but whether such bigotry is active or passive in nature. It's still homophobia; that I agree with. However, I think it does come down to a matter that, for many people, it is of a passive nature that's not rooted in deep-seated hatred. Active bigots are certainly the most frustrating and challenging of people to deal with.

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Old 06-23-2006, 10:34 PM   #119
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Deuteronomy 7 and Joshua 23:12-13 to name a couple.
Our rabbi (I mean, back in Mississippi; this was in the early '80s) actually held a class once for all the children in the synagogue to discuss the Tanakh passages that some Christians in our area would cite as reasons why "mixing of the races" was a "crime against God." (Mississippi's anti-"miscegenation" laws were not repealed until '87, though they'd been declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court 20 years earlier.) There were really quite a few passages--some that stick in my mind are:

Gen 11: The Tower of Babel story. Supposedly this showed that God disliked the idea of different races living together and mixing.

Gen 34: The rape of Dinah by Shechem the Hivite, in revenge for which her brothers kill all the Hivites' sons. (I guess the idea being, you can't trust Other folks around your women.)

Num 25 The Israelites are struck by a plague because Israelite men have been "whoring" after Moabite women and worshipping Baal with them.

Judges 3-6 Israel is repeatedly "delivered into the hands" of enemies by God after repeatedly intermarrying with the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites; "they ignored the Lord their God and worshipped the Baalim and the Asheroth."

1 Kings 11 "King Solomon lusted after many foreign women in addition to Pharaoh's daughter...In his old age, his wives turned away Solomon's heart after other gods..."

Jeremiah 13:23 "Can the Cushite change his skin, or the leopard his spots?" (This phrase was one I heard cited several times...which was almost funny, since in context it's so obviously the House of Judah that's being condemned as hopeless here.)

There were several others, too--I can't remember them all. (And I do remember hearing people quote NT passages a few times, like the one about God determining the bounds of men's habitations, etc.) But essentially, like melon said, what these particular Christians would do was take passages that we'd normally understand today as reflecting Jewish emphasis on maintaining our own religious practices and traditions by marrying other Jews, then say that the "real" reason behind them was to prevent intermarriage with racially inferior people, and that this was all part of God's plan. Though keep in mind, folks who thought this way didn't generally think in terms of there being much difference between the two--if you argued that the problem with marrying a Canaanite, say, was that they didn't observe Jewish law, not that they were Canaanite per se, they'd respond that no, the Canaanites followed reprehensible practices because they were an inferior race (meaning: like blacks) and that Jews back then were right to recognize that trying to "civilize" or convert them wouldn't work. (Need I add, these were usually the same people who insisted that Jesus had been "white" and that Jews had become darker-skinned only since that time through mixing with other races. Although a few were more sophisticated than that and allowed that no, Jesus probably hadn't been "white," but nonetheless it was still clearly God's plan that races stay separate--these were the folks who made the "I have no problems with blacks; I just think it's always wrong to mix with them" sort of argument.)

Unfortunately none of us got much of a chance to actually put the rabbi's lesson into practice, because since we ourselves weren't considered white (plus there was the "Christ-killer" problem) it wasn't like we had any clout with those folks on Biblical matters, anyhow. But it was a good awareness-raising measure, I guess--certainly some food for thought about the extent of chauvinism found in Tanakh. Many of those passages, while not constituting a sound argument against "miscegenation" (since conversions were always a possibility), evince a level of hysteria and disgust about the idea of intermarriage with pagan peoples--which was pretty much everybody else, obviously--that clearly goes beyond mere commitment to upholding Jewish law.
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Old 06-23-2006, 10:37 PM   #120
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