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Old 06-22-2006, 09:03 PM   #76
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
Pointing to OT and NT passages regarding homosexuality is a mater of personal insecurity?

Once you start tearing out the pages, you won't have much left.
I hardly believe that condemning homosexuality was the main point of the Bible, contrary to what "Focus on the Family" might have you all to believe.

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Old 06-22-2006, 09:04 PM   #77
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Irvine possed a very good question (in the other Episcopal thread) that, to date, has been the best in quiry into the subject I've seen. I will be pondering this and taking it before my own pastors.


i would love to hear the answers. please share the content of the future discussion.

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Old 06-22-2006, 09:08 PM   #78
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Pointing to OT and NT passages regarding homosexuality is a mater of personal insecurity?

Once you start tearing out the pages, you won't have much left.
Yes, I view at such. That is the nice thing I guess about where I am with God. I am happy for the two adopted children I see at church. They have two fathers who love them very much. they are not sitting in some foster home getting raped. They are being loved. I am not sitting there in my pew, looking at the two men going, you sinners. The shit in the depths of my heart is far worse than what I witness in church every Sunday. Period.

And yes, I am a pissed off person tonight. A child has crossed my path who was raped in foster care. A child that five years ago, I thought I was safe and protected, and was not going to suffer the abuse the other siblings in the family had suffered. This child could have been so lucky to have had the loving relationship that these two men offer their two children.

So yes, pardon me, if I look at parts of the Old testament, and think, yep, I understand 2,000 years ago, the promiscuity of the Roman empire and understand that that was sexually immoral. I as a thinking human being believe that human beings can be sexually immoral just as I believe human beings can love one another without it being sexually immoral. Heterosexual or Homosexual matters not.
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Old 06-22-2006, 09:26 PM   #79
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Originally posted by melon
I hardly believe that condemning homosexuality was the main point of the Bible, contrary to what "Focus on the Family" might have you all to believe.

Melon
It is hardly the main point of the Bible.

This whole thread (or two) deals with a denominations attempt to separate out homosexuality (placing it in the spotlight) in two different directions.
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Old 06-22-2006, 09:30 PM   #80
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Originally posted by Dreadsox


Yes, I view at such. That is the nice thing I guess about where I am with God. I am happy for the two adopted children I see at church. They have two fathers who love them very much. they are not sitting in some foster home getting raped. They are being loved. I am not sitting there in my pew, looking at the two men going, you sinners. The shit in the depths of my heart is far worse than what I witness in church every Sunday. Period.

And yes, I am a pissed off person tonight. A child has crossed my path who was raped in foster care. A child that five years ago, I thought I was safe and protected, and was not going to suffer the abuse the other siblings in the family had suffered. This child could have been so lucky to have had the loving relationship that these two men offer their two children.

So yes, pardon me, if I look at parts of the Old testament, and think, yep, I understand 2,000 years ago, the promiscuity of the Roman empire and understand that that was sexually immoral. I as a thinking human being believe that human beings can be sexually immoral just as I believe human beings can love one another without it being sexually immoral. Heterosexual or Homosexual matters not.
My prayers are with you and the child who has suffered so cruely.
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Old 06-22-2006, 09:34 PM   #81
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Originally posted by Irvine511
i would love to hear the answers. please share the content of the future discussion.

I will follow up with you my friend.
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Old 06-22-2006, 09:37 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
It is hardly the main point of the Bible.

This whole thread (or two) deals with a denominations attempt to separate out homosexuality (placing it in the spotlight) in two different directions.
I figured you believed that (I'd have honestly been shocked if you'd have said it was).

However, I tend to think that most people think that any acceptance of homosexuals is "placing it in the spotlight." If that's the case, then it will end up being in the spotlight a whole bunch more.

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Old 06-22-2006, 10:00 PM   #83
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic

This is my Golden Rule - if Jesus didn't address it, it's not important. If Jesus addressed it, it's important. Jesus did not address things like homosexuality, polygamy, etc. Jesus addressed things like practicing tolerance and condemned things like hypocracy, hatred, greed, and intolerance. CHRISTians follow Christ and Christ has yet to address the issue of homosexuality (at least in our cannonized Scriptures), so therefore, I will continue to go about my Christian ways and assume that homosexuality, like ANYTHING, is not something people should be judging others against.

What say you to that?
Isn't Calvinism drawn from the non-red letter portions of Scripture?
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Old 06-22-2006, 10:49 PM   #84
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I'd like to address this Leviticus issue. I'm curious to know why Aeon and Nbc have not responded to this.

Because clearly we do NOT follow all of Leviticus and it's doubtful that any Christian denomination does. Some follow more than others (my denomination for example eats kosher--I wish A_wanderer was around. He'd find that interesting--no pork, shellfish or other "unclean" foods). And Aeon and Nbc know full well that other under circumstances they would quickly be able to explain why the Levictical laws about diet, dress, as well as the various ceremonial laws don't apply to Christians (modern and those in the past). In fact I'm guessing they'd go further then Leviticus and explain how the 4th Commandment (about the 7th day Sabbath) found all over the Bible doesn't apply to Christians either. (And I would disagree with them).

So yes, we do pick and choose. Cut and paste. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. I believe that all of Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness, as it says in 2 Timothy 3:16. I also believe that "no prophecy of scripture is matter of one's own interpretation." We can't make the Bible say whatever we want it to. The whole purpose of studying the Bible is to try to understand what God wants to say to us. However that does not mean that we can't think about what Scripture says, try to reconcile what may seem to be it's "inconsistencies." We have to be especially careful about what seems "obvious" in scripture, especially when what seems "obvious" is going to lock whole swaths of people out of God's kingdom through no choice of their own.

So Leviticus. The book was written to the people of Israel at a particular time and place and in a particular culture. Does that mean it is totally irrevelant to our lives today? No. Not if you believe that all of Scripture is still valid. The question is, WHAT is still valid? I would suggest (and I'm guessing Aeon and Nbc would agree) that most of the specific law, prescriptions, and instructions are not. What we do is try to understand (yes, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, you are right AEON) is the principles behind those laws, prescriptions, and instructions. Those principles are what we apply to modern life today. Leviticus also provides us with historical insights into how God's people lived at that time, and helps us understands what it was to be a follower of God's in "Pre-Grace" world.

At least that's the Christian take on the Old Testament, as I understand it.
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Old 06-22-2006, 10:58 PM   #85
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For purposes of this thread, I haven't cited Leviticus based on prior experiences with these discussions.

I appreciate your comments as a summation of the issue and would look to Romans 6:15-23 for insight on the continuing validity of things like Leviticus.

I would say if we have continuing statements that cross through both Old and New Testaments, we must address them as a collective unit, rather using a different basis to question or challenge each statement.
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Old 06-22-2006, 11:25 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
For purposes of this thread, I haven't cited Leviticus based on prior experiences with these discussions.

I appreciate your comments as a summation of the issue and would look to Romans 6:15-23 for insight on the continuing validity of things like Leviticus.

I would say if we have continuing statements that cross through both Old and New Testaments, we must address them as a collective unit, rather using a different basis to question or challenge each statement.
Since I'm fairly new to FYM I don't know what those prior experiences were but I'll take your word for it.

The reason I decided to address it was because we do have people who keep talking about "cut and paste" approach to Scripture and they kept referencing Leviticus. I felt it was important to point out, that yes we all do pick and choose (hopefully not based merely on what parts of scripture we "like.")

Course that's going to inevitably raise the question of if we pick and choose, why do we pick homosexuality?
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Old 06-22-2006, 11:41 PM   #87
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Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity." -- Romans 1:22-27


so, for you and me, having sex with a woman would be giving up our natural relations for the unnatural.

right?
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Old 06-22-2006, 11:46 PM   #88
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Course that's going to inevitably raise the question of if we pick and choose, why do we pick homosexuality?


because it's the topic du jour, it deals with forcing people to give up comforting notions of normalcy, and because homophobia is quite ingrained in society. heck, i was as homophobic as any other 12 year old boy -- i remember talking about what "flamers" all the olympic ice skaters were (which did beg the question as to why i was watching ice skating )

it seems that homophobia is under fire right now, so we're seeing a backlash.

old prejudices die hard.

as i'm sure you know.
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Old 06-23-2006, 12:03 AM   #89
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Originally posted by Irvine511
so, for you and me, having sex with a woman would be giving up our natural relations for the unnatural.

right?
Essentially--and no one seems to really want to come out and say this--St. Paul is describing a pagan temple orgy, which were commonly bisexual in nature. He--or, at least, the translators--have the eloquence of a bad romance novel.

Complicating things is that the Greek word translated as "unnatural" is "para-physin." In other parts of the New Testament, God is described as "para-physin." So something tells me that passage is just a mess no matter which way you want to look at it.

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Old 06-23-2006, 12:42 AM   #90
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People are not "homophobic" because they believe that God teaches that homsexual activity is a sin. There are numerous sins listed in the Bible and I, along with my brothers and sisters, commit these sins regularly. I am no better and no worse than anyone struggling with this sin issue. I have my own, different issues, my own "thorn in my side" if you will.

I do not claim that homosexual activity is worse than any other sexual sin - I just claim that the Bible states that it is indeed...a sin. There are volumes of information out there that debate both sides of the issue (is it a sin or not a sin?). Heck, some people have made a career out of it.

Melon makes some interesting insights and I respect his intelligence. However, with a quick google search you can find many articles that both support and defeat his argument. Most of those articles are way too lengthy to cut and paste into a forum. It is not an issue that can be discussed properly in a few paragraphs. I suggest that if you are really interested, do the research and come to your own conclusion...prayerfully. As I said before, without the Holy Spirit's guidance, it will be impossible to come to the conclusion that God intends.

I did not join this debate with any illusion of winning. The emotions surrounding this subject make it impossible to have a calm, objective discussion. However, I do feel it is important to call out when I see Holy Scripture being misrepresented and misquoted. I doubt I convinced anyone of anything, but I hope that a few of you at least looked at your Bibles to see what it actually says. If that happened, I am pleased. God can take over from there.

If you can honestly say, after all the research, and all the prayer, that God condones homosexual sex, then by all means - enjoy it and live a Spirit filled, Holy life. Personally - I think it is extremely clear that ANY sexual activity outside of male/female marriage is a sin - and I try to live accordingly. But you are free to disagree with me
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