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Old 06-22-2006, 02:40 PM   #31
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
We are all sinners.

But to say someone is born black or gay, and being black or gay is a sin, is completely different.
But you can make the argument (and many have for things other than homosexual acts) that a person was born with the desire to commit any given sin.
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Old 06-22-2006, 02:41 PM   #32
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Excuse me, please refrain from your self righteousness.

I've studied the Bible extensively. I know you can't use it to justify slavery or racism, that was my point. You also can't use it to justify discrimination towards homosexuals.
Who is descriminating against homosexuals? Me? Paul the Apostle? The Episcopal Church? What do you mean by descriminating?
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Old 06-22-2006, 02:49 PM   #33
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But you can make the argument (and many have for things other than homosexual acts) that a person was born with the desire to commit any given sin.
But this isn't what I'm talking about, you're talking around the subject. I'm not talking about the desire to commit sin. I'm talking about the pure fact that some will say being black is your sin.
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Old 06-22-2006, 02:50 PM   #34
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Who is descriminating against homosexuals? Me? Paul the Apostle? The Episcopal Church? What do you mean by descriminating?
Um, let's see...not allowing them to lead in a church.
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Old 06-22-2006, 02:54 PM   #35
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
But this isn't what I'm talking about, you're talking around the subject. I'm not talking about the desire to commit sin. I'm talking about the pure fact that some will say being black is your sin.
We're talking about the same thing. If someone sincerely claims that God made them a gossip, wouldn't you be forced to eliminate gossip as a sin?
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Old 06-22-2006, 02:59 PM   #36
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Originally posted by AEON


Who is descriminating against homosexuals? Me? Paul the Apostle? The Episcopal Church? What do you mean by descriminating?


i feel tremendous sorrow for the gay Christian youth who hate themselves, and sometimes kill themselves, because of messages like this.
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Old 06-22-2006, 03:05 PM   #37
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We're talking about the same thing. If someone sincerely claims that God made them a gossip, wouldn't you be forced to eliminate gossip as a sin?
No we aren't.

You can choose not to be a gossip.
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Old 06-22-2006, 03:08 PM   #38
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
No we aren't.

You can choose not to be a gossip.
So you won't accept someone else's sincere belief?
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Old 06-22-2006, 03:13 PM   #39
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So you won't accept someone else's sincere belief?
I'm not talking about beliefs.
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Old 06-22-2006, 03:20 PM   #40
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Couldn't we all say that our own sin is due to the way God made us? (and there are those who find freedom in this idea)
I expected this comment....

Nature VS Nurture.....

There are plenty of paths that I could easily spiral down. Is it nature/nurture. The demons of my childhood could be an excuse for me to take any one of sinful paths that I have to deal with. And I do not always manage to control the demons, sometimes, quite frankly, I would prefer to give into them. I have a hard enough time dealing with the fact that my addictive compulsiveness could very easily take over if I let it.

Did God make me this way? I suppose. Did my rearing make me this way? I suppose.

But, 2,000 years ago did they understand things like this? Was there any concept of our genetics and the effects of upbringing and trauma.

Without a loving and forgiving God...I am done for. The sins that people deal with in their hearts...my capability to lust, to hate, to wish ill on someone, to lose oneself in drugs or alcohol......

How does one compare that to homosexuality......where someone LOVES someone, monogomously, faithfully, truly from the depths of their soul.
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Old 06-22-2006, 03:25 PM   #41
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Without a loving and forgiving God...I am done for. The sins that people deal with in their hearts...my capability to lust, to hate, to wish ill on someone, to lose oneself in drugs or alcohol......



this is beautifully said. perhaps God understands better now the condition of homosexuality? after all, he's had 2000 years of watching us.


Quote:
How does one compare that to homosexuality......where someone LOVES someone, monogomously, faithfully, truly from the depths of their soul.

because, so often in discussions about homosexuality and gay people, love never, ever enters the equation. it's only sex, a compulsive attraction, emotions are never discussed.

we have a POTUS and a chief justice who have never used the word "gay" in public speech.

there's a reason for that.
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Old 06-22-2006, 03:48 PM   #42
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We're talking about the same thing. If someone sincerely claims that God made them a gossip, wouldn't you be forced to eliminate gossip as a sin?
Are you seriously suggesting that (for instance) the lifetime of love, support, companionship, shared witness together, and raising of children to one day do the same, that you enjoy with your wife would somehow be rendered analogous to the "sinful" pleasures of indulging in gossip if it were a gay couple pursuing those things instead--simply because the sex involved in their relationship would be gay, and that somehow cancels out all the goodness from the rest of it? Because this really is what sanctioning gay relationships (or relatedly, the fitness of gay men and women to serve their church as clergy) is all about. It's not that they won't be sinners in all sorts of ways, just like anyone else; of course they will be. But if you're categorically saying that gay relationships--including committed, monogamous ones between religious believers--are inherently sinful in and of themselves, then inevitably, you're sentencing virtually all gay religious people (and gay children of religious parents who teach them that) to a lifetime of shame, self-loathing, and constant struggle to suppress urges and longings you would not have suppressed in yourself. And I really don't see a reassurance of "You need feel no shame before God; everyone sins" bringing much comfort to someone whose available paths to a full and productive spiritual life are so stunted and infantilized and truncated by the constant need to suppress an urge to "sin" in a way that (apparently) negates all the good things that we otherwise understand to come from a committed marriage.

Is there even such a thing as a person who is constitutionally unable to refrain from gossiping without experiencing such things? If there is, I have not heard of it.

Or am I simply not understanding you?
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Old 06-22-2006, 04:00 PM   #43
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Um, let's see...not allowing them to lead in a church.
Not allowing someone to lead a church because they are Theologically wrong is not descrimination in the standard use of the word. If it is, then I being descriminated against by my company because they have not promoted me to CEO.

I am not the CEO because I am not qualified to be the CEO. (not that CEO are always qualified - but that is a different matter

A homosexual priest or leader that clearly states the homosexual activity is sinful and that he/she does not engage in the activity - and meets all the other qualifications (seminary, ministry work, etc) then by all means, they should be allowed to lead a church. As a matter of fact, I think such a leader could have a TREMENDOUS impact on today's culture. But teaching that homosexual activity is NOT a sin, goes against what the Bible teaches. Therefore, such a person (regardless of orientation) is automatically disqualified from being a church leader...in my opinion and according 1 Timothy 3.
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Old 06-22-2006, 04:10 PM   #44
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Not allowing someone to lead a church because they are Theologically wrong is not descrimination in the standard use of the word.
Who's theology?


Quote:
Originally posted by AEON

A homosexual priest or leader that clearly states the homosexual activity is sinful and that he/she does not engage in the activity - and meets all the other qualifications (seminary, ministry work, etc) then by all means, they should be allowed to lead a church. As a matter of fact, I think such a leader could have a TREMENDOUS impact on today's culture. But teaching that homosexual activity is NOT a sin, goes against what the Bible teaches. Therefore, such a person (regardless of orientation) is automatically disqualified from being a church leader...in my opinion and according 1 Timothy 3.
Or maybe we need bishops and priests that look at the true context of the Bible and don't lead people through a blind cut and paste form of Christianity...
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Old 06-22-2006, 04:17 PM   #45
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But teaching that homosexual activity is NOT a sin, goes against what the Bible teaches.

again with the "activity"!

tell me, can i date my boyfriend, but it's only sinful if we fuck?
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