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Old 06-23-2006, 05:42 PM   #121
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Originally posted by Irvine511
how do you know this? is obedience the only form of love god wants? can obedience ever be love, at least a mature kind of love?
It is repeated throughout Scripture.

"Know therefore that the LORD your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commands." Deuteronomy 7:9

"But be very careful to keep the commandment and the law that Moses the servant of the LORD gave you: to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, to obey his commands, to hold fast to him and to serve him with all your heart and all your soul." Joshua 22:5

"O LORD, God of heaven, the great and awesome God, who keeps his covenant of love with those who love him and obey his commands" Nehemiah 1:5

"I lift up my hands to your commands, which I love, and I meditate on your decrees." Psalm 119:48

"O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps his covenant of love with all who love him and obey his commands" Daniel 9:4

"If you love me, you will obey what I command." John 14:15 (bonus for red letters!)

"Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him." John 14:21 (more red)

"If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love." John 15:10 (red)

"This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world." 1 John 5:3-4


Please do not take this as justification for those who self-reighteously point out the flaws of others - they are not following the commands either.

I add this as when we say we want to love God, we should find out what God means by that, not what we feel is the right thing. Fortunately, those are not mutually exclusive.
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Old 06-23-2006, 07:02 PM   #122
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But' Thou shall not be homosexual' isn't a commandment.

Unless man-made laws become God's commandment when repeated enough times...
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Old 06-23-2006, 07:10 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


It is repeated throughout Scripture.

"Know therefore that the LORD your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commands." Deuteronomy 7:9

"But be very careful to keep the commandment and the law that Moses the servant of the LORD gave you: to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, to obey his commands, to hold fast to him and to serve him with all your heart and all your soul." Joshua 22:5

"O LORD, God of heaven, the great and awesome God, who keeps his covenant of love with those who love him and obey his commands" Nehemiah 1:5

"I lift up my hands to your commands, which I love, and I meditate on your decrees." Psalm 119:48

"O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps his covenant of love with all who love him and obey his commands" Daniel 9:4

"If you love me, you will obey what I command." John 14:15 (bonus for red letters!)

"Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him." John 14:21 (more red)

"If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love." John 15:10 (red)

"This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world." 1 John 5:3-4


Please do not take this as justification for those who self-reighteously point out the flaws of others - they are not following the commands either.

I add this as when we say we want to love God, we should find out what God means by that, not what we feel is the right thing. Fortunately, those are not mutually exclusive.
You are right. Jesus makes it clear that a major aspect of loving Him to obey His commands. But what the Greatest Commandment teaches is that every other commandment must be filtered through love: primarily for God and secondly for others.

When I study the Gospels, I see that this is what continually made Jesus so upset. The people had no problem following God's commands. They were all about that. But in their following, they lost love, both for God and for others. They were obsessed about obeying commands. But they mistakenly believed that if they followed the rules and did all the right things (cross all our T's and dot all of our I's), they were pleasing God.

Jesus changed all that by teaching that no rule matters if it is not filtered through love. Love, for God and for people, is the highest law. To me, that's what makes the issue of dealing with the homosexual so complicated. How can we follow a rule (homosexuality is a sin) if it so regularly fleshes out in a lack of love? How can we claim to follow Christ when we're putting law above grace? How can we alienate those Christ would never have alienated?

Essentially what I'm asking is: what is the higher command?

(Pardon my ramblings, I'm just talking to myself here.)
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Old 06-23-2006, 07:14 PM   #124
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
But' Thou shall not be homosexual' isn't a commandment.

Unless man-made laws become God's commandment when repeated enough times...
Why trivialize the level of thoughtful discussion taking place in these threads on both sides of the issue? Plenty of God's commands have been presented.
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Old 06-23-2006, 07:21 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Why trivialize the level of thoughtful discussion taking place in these threads on both sides of the issue? Plenty of God's commands have been presented.
I'm not trivializing anything. It's just a fact. It's not there.

Not everything in the Bible is God's commandment. Would you agree with this?
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Old 06-23-2006, 07:27 PM   #126
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I agree with you BVS. Most of it was written by Men in the later years. When I tell this to some of my family or friends they say I am wrong.
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Old 06-23-2006, 07:28 PM   #127
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I take the Bible as God's inerrant Word. I don't separate out what I want to attribute to God and what I want to attribute to man. For unless we attribute all to God, then none of it is trustworthy as coming from a Holy God.
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Old 06-23-2006, 07:34 PM   #128
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
I take the Bible as God's inerrant Word. I don't separate out what I want to attribute to God and what I want to attribute to man.
But it's not a matter of what "I want to attribute to God" or not.
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Old 06-23-2006, 07:40 PM   #129
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


But it's not a matter of what "I want to attribute to God" or not.
How can it not be? If you want to separate Scripture into God's law and man's law, are you not the one setting the standard?
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Old 06-23-2006, 08:26 PM   #130
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


How can it not be? If you want to separate Scripture into God's law and man's law, are you not the one setting the standard?
So if it's all God's law then why is he such a sexist?

"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women[a] will be saved[b] through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety."

Why don't we follow this today? Why aren't women wearing veils in the temple? Why are husbands sleeping in the same bed while their wives are menstrating? Why are they allowed to touch their wives before the 8 days of being unclean after having a son?


Could it possibly be because this was man's idea?
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Old 06-23-2006, 09:07 PM   #131
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Originally posted by AEON
Melon is someone who seems to love research. But he does not strike me as someone who is really seeking God's will in the matter. (That is only my opinion based on the nature of his posts and nothing else - so I admit before hand - I could be wrong about this).
Quite the assumption, although I'm not all that surprised. For most people, the concepts of faith and reason are as diametrically opposed as fire and ice. However, this was not always the case in religion. The Middle Ages was the height of religious thought, and had a wide diversity of philosophy in Christianity, Judaism, and even Islam. It is from this tradition that I draw my religious convictions, not the myopic essentialism that pervades today's religious landscape.

It's that essentialism that seems to afflict you, and, frankly, it disappoints me that religion is stuck in such a quagmire. It's that essentialism that causes religion to consistently seem irrelevant and what causes religion to seem like nothing but a group of insane extremists.

And, frankly, that's what got us into this protracted argument in the first place. I'm acutely aware that there are liberal Christians, mainline Christians, and conservative/fundmentalist Christians. I recognize that each exist. However, I do not see such equal recognition coming from conservative Christians, particularly when you burst in here and all but declare the Episcopal Church of being guilty of heresy.

Frankly, if you and other conservative Christians don't like how liberal the Episcopal Church has become, then don't be a part of it. Join the myriad of Christian religions that are most contented in being two steps away from being the Christian Taliban. But liberal Christians seem to have few options in the religious scheme of things, short of becoming a lapsed Christian or becoming an embittered agnostic/atheist.

My point from the start of all of this was less about debunking conservative Christian theology as much as acknowledging that there is a solid theological foundation for liberal Christian beliefs, rather than just a flippant argument about how everyone just picks and chooses from the Bible. While I can certainly make plenty of arguments in favor of the latter, even amongst self-professed "fundamentalist Christians," my theology is, instead, based on something much stronger than that.

If you can't understand that, then you can understand why it is so hard to modernize Islamic nations. Conservative Christians, just like conservative Muslims, frankly, can be so stubborn.

And that's why I take offense to what you have written here. You have no right to make such an asinine assumption.

Melon
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Old 06-23-2006, 09:57 PM   #132
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
[B]

So if it's all God's law then why is he such a sexist?

"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women[a] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety."

Why don't we follow this today? Why aren't women wearing veils in the temple? Why are husbands sleeping in the same bed while their wives are menstrating? Why are they allowed to touch their wives before the 8 days of being unclean after having a son?

Could it possibly be because this was man's idea?
It sounds as if the concepts presented by Scripture are too difficult to follow, or do not match our concepts. The Scripture quoted is not one of the easiest passages to follow, but still must be addressed. Take this as God's and prayerfully consider what it means instead of take it as man's and toss it away.
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Old 06-23-2006, 10:14 PM   #133
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


It sounds as if the concepts presented by Scripture are too difficult to follow, or do not match our concepts. The Scripture quoted is not one of the easiest passages to follow, but still must be addressed. Take this as God's and prayerfully consider what it means instead of take it as man's and toss it away.
Well then I guess we should rid ourselves of all our female ministers, priests etc and start changing society to be as sexist as God.

Seems pretty hypocritical of the church not to follow these rules.
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Old 06-23-2006, 10:50 PM   #134
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Originally posted by stammer476


You are right. Jesus makes it clear that a major aspect of loving Him to obey His commands. But what the Greatest Commandment teaches is that every other commandment must be filtered through love: primarily for God and secondly for others.

When I study the Gospels, I see that this is what continually made Jesus so upset. The people had no problem following God's commands. They were all about that. But in their following, they lost love, both for God and for others. They were obsessed about obeying commands. But they mistakenly believed that if they followed the rules and did all the right things (cross all our T's and dot all of our I's), they were pleasing God.

Jesus changed all that by teaching that no rule matters if it is not filtered through love. Love, for God and for people, is the highest law. To me, that's what makes the issue of dealing with the homosexual so complicated. How can we follow a rule (homosexuality is a sin) if it so regularly fleshes out in a lack of love? How can we claim to follow Christ when we're putting law above grace? How can we alienate those Christ would never have alienated?

Essentially what I'm asking is: what is the higher command?

(Pardon my ramblings, I'm just talking to myself here.)
I love this post.....very much.
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Old 06-23-2006, 10:57 PM   #135
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I love this post.....very much.
Hey, thanks.

Good to know I'm not the only thinks this way.
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