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Old 06-23-2006, 08:36 AM   #106
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Originally posted by AEON
But we as Christians are also called to defend the faith against false teachers, the "wolves in sheeps clothing." Many Christians are confused by the types of questions being raised here. I am just showing them that not everyone agrees with the answers that Melon provides. The stance I am taking is unpopular here, it may not be politically correct, and almost certainly cast me in a negative light in the Interference crowd. However, if I didn't stand up to what I believe is a false representation a what Christ taught, then I would be failing my duty.
Ah yes...the nuclear bomb of Biblical debate: when all else fails, call your opponent a false teacher.

And then we tell the Sunnis and Shi'ites in Iraq to get along with each other, when liberal and conservative Christians cannot reconcile themselves.

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Old 06-23-2006, 10:46 AM   #107
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So again, your brand of Christianity does not cut and paste? Still waiting for my answer to that.

In two threads you attack the leadership of my church and my church itself implying we are not Christians.

I do not agree with maycocksean's post at all.
To answer your question - no, I do not believe I am a cut and paste Christian. As Jesus said, all of the law and prophets can be summed up in the Great Commandment. And as most Biblical Scholars will say, Jesus is referring to the 10 Commandments - not the Leveticus laws - which are not followed today because they were believed necessary to carry the Jews through history until the arrival of the Messiah. The Bible itself informs us that this is the case in Paul's letters and the Book of Acts - as Melon correctly pointed out.

Now you'll say ha ha! But you quoted Leviticus! You ARE cut and paste! But I only quoted Leveticus because Paul refers to it and to put his stance on homsexuality into context. So why is Leviticus still in the Bible? To see how God sustained the Jews for the arrival of the Messiah.

Now, back to the Great Commandment. Included in the 10 commandments which Jesus is referring to is adultery. I believe that homosexual sex falls into this category as well as porn, premarital sex..any sex outside of the marriage between a man and woman. I believe Jesus and the Book of Ephesians cleary describe what marriage is, and how it should work. At no time is male and male or female and female marriage either discussed or encouraged. The term "marriage" is self defining - the union of man and woman.

Regarding my criticism of the Episcopal Church - am I not allowed to? Are their views off limits for debate? And I don't believe I ever said they weren't Christians...the debate was whether or not non-repentant gays should be church leaders and whether or not the church itself is correct in asserting that homosexual sex is not a sin.

I do not feel I am "right" because so many disagree (at least here). Because I tend to take an Orthodox viewpoint, I can find consideral agreement in other forums on other websites. As a matter of fact, in my Christian circle of friends and family - I am the one with the more "liberal" viewpoints of the Bible.

Do I have gay friends? Not that I know of. Not because I refuse to have a friendship with anyone gay - it just hasn't happened. I don't seek out friends to fill some quota or make a statement of social justice. However, if I happen to really get along with someone I meet - I would not "cease" being his freind because he was gay.

Because I do not have gay friends, it does not change what the Bible says about gay sex. I do agree that it would "soften" my tone - but it wouldn't make what Jesus and Paul said any less true.

I find it is the tendency for people to always try and justify their behavior. Myself included. Again, I ask, what is your motivation? Usually it is because you want to keep doing what you are doing because changing is so difficult. However, as time goes by, the Spirit does reveal the Truth to you. This is part of the Sanctification process.

Melon is someone who seems to love research. But he does not strike me as someone who is really seeking God's will in the matter. (That is only my opinion based on the nature of his posts and nothing else - so I admit before hand - I could be wrong about this). Irvine strikes me as someone who wants to be loved by God and not denied what he called a "normal" life: love, children, family...etc. I want to assure him that God does love him and that God accepts him just as his son upon the moment of his faith in Jesus Christ. As Christians, God no longer sees our hangups, but only the blood of Jesus Christ. God then uses the Holy Spirit's power to tranform us into the image of Jesus Christ.

I know I need work on my "presentation." I think I do come across a little more friendly in person, but probably only a little
It is really difficult to commuicate in this manner, but I still give it a shot because I know there are other people who read this who may be "on the fence" regarding this issue and I want them to know that there are some people out here that are not intimitated by the hateful, misguided attacks that usually result. I would not be suprised if I were banned because I DARE claim that the Bible thinks that homosexual sex is a sin.

I promise - I am done posting on this subject for now. You can accuse of me of backing down or say that I am avoiding the tough questions, but that isn't the case. I simply think I have said what needed to be said and that if you go through these threads - I have answered the questions completely and honestly.However, you will only see the Truth if you want to. Otherwise you will only find a mirror that justifies your own desires.

I pray all goes well with everyone on their quest.

God Bless
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Old 06-23-2006, 11:25 AM   #108
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[q]Because I do not have gay friends, it does not change what the Bible says about gay sex. [/q]


but it might change your interpretation and understanding of what the bible says about "gay sex" -- again, AEON, you're reducing me to ass fucking when i'm so much more than that.

i enjoy oral sex too.
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Old 06-23-2006, 11:30 AM   #109
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Old 06-23-2006, 11:33 AM   #110
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I have to say that AEON is making a great case against the religion, or for it if thats what floats your boat.

But seriously how can a religion claim ultimate truth, divine revelation and all the rest of that if it is opened up to interperatation by humanity? Once a religion stops laying claim to truth what can it offer by way of belief, what are people putting faith in?

All this understanding and interperatation strikes me as justification of belief, something that the finest minds in the history of the world have engaged in. Making the absurd sane and rationalising that change in view.
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Old 06-23-2006, 12:04 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


To answer your question - no, I do not believe I am a cut and paste Christian. As Jesus said, all of the law and prophets can be summed up in the Great Commandment. And as most Biblical Scholars will say, Jesus is referring to the 10 Commandments - not the Leveticus laws - which are not followed today because they were believed necessary to carry the Jews through history until the arrival of the Messiah. The Bible itself informs us that this is the case in Paul's letters and the Book of Acts - as Melon correctly pointed out.
I guess I've always thought Jesus' Great Commandment was to love to accept everyone. Christians are no longer judged by how well they adhere to the 10 Commandments, we are judged by whether or not we accept Jesus. There's NOTHING in the Bible that says gays cannot accept Jesus. I don't care if the Bible says gay sex is wrong. Your precious Leviticus condemns having relations with menstruating women. But.....I don't see any articles about banning women from being part of the clergy while they're on their periods. You got called a "copy and paster" because you're doing such a great job of defeding Leviticus, yet if you REALLY believed all of those Laws, your life would be hell! All those laws about sex, childbirth, animals, food, blood, pus...you name it. If that's really how you live I truly feel bad for you and admire your absolute devotion to Mosaic Law.

Anywa, I understand that you're not saying you don't love gay people, but I'm not seeing what Paul's letters have to do with homosexuals as bishops.

To me, this is not an issue of homosexuality (well, it is but....), it's about people thinking they have the God-given right to CHOOSE which sins they feel are applicable. If gays can't be bishops simply because they are gay, than you have no choice but to extend this logic and say that alcohol or drug users/abusers can't be bishops, men/women who have affairs or get divorced can't be bishops, anyone who's ever had a lustful or hateful thought can't be a bishop....see what a mess this creates?

AEON - Why do you personally have a problem with gays being leaders in the church?
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Old 06-23-2006, 02:11 PM   #112
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Originally posted by AEON
I know I need work on my "presentation." I think I do come across a little more friendly in person, but probably only a little
It is really difficult to commuicate in this manner, but I still give it a shot because I know there are other people who read this who may be "on the fence" regarding this issue and I want them to know that there are some people out here that are not intimitated by the hateful, misguided attacks that usually result. I would not be suprised if I were banned because I DARE claim that the Bible thinks that homosexual sex is a sin.
It is difficult in this manner, I agree.

I have attended many churches. I have looked for many a home. My friends range from Evangelical Born Again, Catholic, Episcopal, Unitarian, Jehovah's Witnesses....and on and on. We debate, go back and forth, and still have respect and love for one another.

AS for you being banned...I doubt it. I think you held your own fine.
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Old 06-23-2006, 02:13 PM   #113
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic
To me, this is not an issue of homosexuality (well, it is but....), it's about people thinking they have the God-given right to CHOOSE which sins they feel are applicable. If gays can't be bishops simply because they are gay, than you have no choice but to extend this logic and say that alcohol or drug users/abusers can't be bishops, men/women who have affairs or get divorced can't be bishops, anyone who's ever had a lustful or hateful thought can't be a bishop....see what a mess this creates?
You have summed up exactly how I feel perfectly. The only point of contention that I have is in the viewing of homosexuality as being any more sinful than heterosexuality.

I think sexual immorality at this stage of my life has a much different picture.
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Old 06-23-2006, 02:41 PM   #114
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Originally posted by Dreadsox


So again, your brand of Christianity does not cut and paste? Still waiting for my answer to that.

In two threads you attack the leadership of my church and my church itself implying we are not Christians.

I do not agree with maycocksean's post at all.
Just curious, dreadsox. Which post did you disagree with?
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Old 06-23-2006, 02:45 PM   #115
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Originally posted by Irvine511
[q]Because I do not have gay friends, it does not change what the Bible says about gay sex. [/q]


but it might change your interpretation and understanding of what the bible says about "gay sex" --
I hope you haven't given up reading this thread, AEON now that you've "withdrawn from the battle" because this is it right here. What Irvine says nails it on the head.

At least that's what's happened with me. You seem to be completely oblivious to the fact that your stand on homosexuality might be in actual CONFLICT with other parts of scripture.
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Old 06-23-2006, 02:47 PM   #116
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AEON, I find your last post extremely disturbing. You've missed almost every point. Especially the great commandment...

You'd get along great with the pharisees.

Good luck.

I'm out of this discussion.
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Old 06-23-2006, 03:11 PM   #117
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*ahem*

Quote:
Matthew 22:36-37

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
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Old 06-23-2006, 03:34 PM   #118
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^ if this were the message i heard most from Christianity, then i might actually consider becoming an active, practicing Christian (as opposed to a collapsed Catholic who's simply curious about such things, but probably worships skepticism above everything else)
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Old 06-23-2006, 05:01 PM   #119
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I understand the appeal to the verse. Break everything down to love. And since we can define love our own way (I am not speaking of homosexuality here), we can fulfill this any way we want.

What does it mean to love God? To obey His Commands!
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Old 06-23-2006, 05:25 PM   #120
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
What does it mean to love God? To obey His Commands!


how do you know this? is obedience the only form of love god wants? can obedience ever be love, at least a mature kind of love?
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