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Old 06-22-2006, 07:34 PM   #91
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Excellent....

And I am more than willing to be your flower girl when the time comes
Sweet, can I be the ring bearer?
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Old 06-22-2006, 07:37 PM   #92
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Thank GOD that Sodom was destroyed to save this f'd up bunch

[Q]Finally, the two virgin daughters hit upon a plan. They found some grapes. They made them into wine. They prepared the wine for their father. Their father, not knowing what their plan was, drank the wine. Finally, their father became completely drunk. They carried Lot into his cave and laid him down.

One daughter left the other alone with Lot in the cave. The daughter in the cave with Lot had sex with her father. Lot was completely drunk and did not know what he was doing. The next day, Lot had no memory of this.

The next night, the two daughters brought some more wine. Lot drank the wine and got drunk again. Again, they took them into his cave. This time, the other daughter had sex with her father. The next morning, Lot had no memory of any of this.

The two now no longer virgin daughters both became pregnant from having sex with their father. Each daughter gave birth to a baby boy. The name of the first boy was Moab. The name of the second boy was Benammi. These two boys each became the founder of a great tribe.

[/Q]

It must be all about the sex......
since I was little, I always found that text quite disturbing...

And because of texts like that I started to think that the Bible isn't a book from God. The Bible is the History of our relationship with god, about how the people shapes their own god according to their prejudices, their fears, their needs. Because if God is love, how we can explain all those laws against women, foreign people and gays?... it is evident that those laws aren't from God , those laws and precepts are from the Men (male, aristocratic men) who tried to put their words in God's mouth.
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Old 06-22-2006, 08:51 PM   #93
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And I am more than willing to be your flower girl when the time comes


i'm sure you'd look smashing in a dress -- tell me, just how enthusiastically can you toss flower petals?
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Old 06-22-2006, 08:52 PM   #94
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Sweet, can I be the ring bearer?

of course.

somehow, i always knew my ring bearer would be a red head ...
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Old 06-22-2006, 08:56 PM   #95
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of course.

somehow, i always knew my ring bearer would be a red head ...
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Old 06-22-2006, 09:04 PM   #96
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Who are you to say that romantic love is a cheap thing? and don't come with more bible stuff because I want to know what the real AEON (if there is a real one) thinks.
I am actually very happily married. While our marriage does have all three forms of love - it is the Agape love that is the foundation. This is why pastors refer to it - because it is what remains when your are not necessarily "feeling" romantic love.

I promised I would quote 1 Corinthians 13 - the best definition of Agape love in the Bible:

1 Corinthians 13

Love
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 1but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love

This type of love is the foundation of marriage, as well as the foundation for my love of my brothers and sisters. This is the kind of love that motivated Christ to die for us, and the type of love that motivated the Apostles to die for spreading the message of Christ.
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Old 06-22-2006, 09:06 PM   #97
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Old 06-22-2006, 09:14 PM   #98
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Originally posted by Muggsy
since I was little, I always found that text quite disturbing...

And because of texts like that I started to think that the Bible isn't a book from God. The Bible is the History of our relationship with god, about how the people shapes their own god according to their prejudices, their fears, their needs. Because if God is love, how we can explain all those laws against women, foreign people and gays?... it is evident that those laws aren't from God , those laws and precepts are from the Men (male, aristocratic men) who tried to put their words in God's mouth.
Genesis is a fascinating book, because it is probably the least touched from Zoroastrian-influenced Judaism (Pharisees), versus original Judaism (Sadducees).

These rather xenophobic texts get even more complicated if you realize that all the "enemies" surrounding them were actually fellow Semitic tribesmen. "Yahweh," in the Semitic hierarchy, was actually the "Thunder/Mountain God" (El Shaddai), while actually being a subordinate to the supreme Semitic deity, El. Yahweh even had a "consort," the Semitic goddess, Asherah.

While Yahweh was eventually transformed into the supreme God (not much different from how Ahura Mazda was merely one in a pantheon of gods in Vedic Hinduism, but elevated to a supreme god in Zoroastrianism), Genesis does give rather cryptic clues to its origin. I have to wonder if the early Jews would have worshipped Yahweh as their protector God, while recognizing the existence of the entire pantheon of Semitic gods. It would have been highly common 3,000 years ago or so.

The Ten Commandments don't particularly help either, considering the first commandment merely states not to put any god before Yahweh. It does not state that He is the only God.

Anyway, I digress. My point is that Genesis is quite interesting for many less obvious reasons.

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Old 06-22-2006, 11:59 PM   #99
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Originally posted by Muggsy


since I was little, I always found that text quite disturbing...

And because of texts like that I started to think that the Bible isn't a book from God. The Bible is the History of our relationship with god, about how the people shapes their own god according to their prejudices, their fears, their needs. Because if God is love, how we can explain all those laws against women, foreign people and gays?... it is evident that those laws aren't from God , those laws and precepts are from the Men (male, aristocratic men) who tried to put their words in God's mouth.
You think that's disturbing? Oh there's lot's worse as I'm sure you know.

I don't suppose it matters much to point out that there's nothing in Scripture to indicate that God told these two women to do what they did, nor is there anything to indicate that he approved of it (or the decision Lot made earlier in the chapter about handing his daughters over to a gang of men to be raped).

There's a line from one of my favorite singer/songwriters, Rich Mullins where he says "Well, it's right there in the Bible so it must not be a sin." He was being sarcastic of course. Everything that Biblical people, even his "followers" did should not be construed as automatically gaining God's approval. Not that that solves everything because God told people to do some things that were pretty whack too.

I guess I came to a different conclusion. I believe that the Bible is from God. But it was written by men in their words, with their perspectives, in a particular time and place. There is a lot that I still don't understand in scripture, but I understand Jesus (well enought anyway) and that's my starting place.

There's no question that the Bible is male oriented, but the same Bible says that in Christ there is no differentiatian between male and female in Christ. Those barriers are broken down. I think Jesus was the beginning of shift away from the patriarchal model of the old testament.
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Old 06-23-2006, 12:12 AM   #100
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You think that's disturbing? Oh there's lot's worse as I'm sure you know.

I don't suppose it matters much to point out that there's nothing in Scripture to indicate that God told these two women to do what they did, nor is there anything to indicate that he approved of it (or the decision Lot made earlier in the chapter about handing his daughters over to a gang of men to be raped).

There's a line from one of my favorite singer/songwriters, Rich Mullins where he says "Well, it's right there in the Bible so it must not be a sin." He was being sarcastic of course. Everything that Biblical people, even his "followers" did should not be construed as automatically gaining God's approval. Not that that solves everything because God told people to do some things that were pretty whack too.

I guess I came to a different conclusion. I believe that the Bible is from God. But it was written by men in their words, with their perspectives, in a particular time and place. There is a lot that I still don't understand in scripture, but I understand Jesus (well enought anyway) and that's my starting place.

There's no question that the Bible is male oriented, but the same Bible says that in Christ there is no differentiatian between male and female in Christ. Those barriers are broken down. I think Jesus was the beginning of shift away from the patriarchal model of the old testament.
Yes I know that there are more disturbing things ... but as I said before I read that passage when I was very little... I was in primary school, a catholic school by the way, and the nuns let us to read the Bible freely in the spare times and I remember how impressed I was when I read that story... I mean I was to young to even imagine a girl having a kid from her own dad; i didn't even know that sometimes that happens in our time.

As a woman, raised in a catholic enviroment I realised how much the religion have treated women as sinful beings and not deserving of significant place in the Church. It is true that Jesus treated men and women as equals and that's a huge advance, but that's not seen in the Church, this year the Pope said that women can't be priests. I'm not talking about God here, I'm talking about the human institutions that wants to speak for Him. For me God is not represented in the Church, at least not in the best way, and (maybe unfortuantely) I came to the conclusion that , if the Bible has so many contradictions is because we haven't get the message.
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Old 06-23-2006, 12:27 AM   #101
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I am actually very happily married. While our marriage does have all three forms of love - it is the Agape love that is the foundation. This is why pastors refer to it - because it is what remains when your are not necessarily "feeling" romantic love.

I promised I would quote 1 Corinthians 13 - the best definition of Agape love in the Bible:

1 Corinthians 13

Love
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 1but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love

This type of love is the foundation of marriage, as well as the foundation for my love of my brothers and sisters. This is the kind of love that motivated Christ to die for us, and the type of love that motivated the Apostles to die for spreading the message of Christ.
AEON, I'm wondering if you have any idea how you sound? Or if that matters to you?

I know you may not intend to but you sound very blithe and condescending.

I'm very familiar with the politicized Christian view of homosexuals, that they are all radicalized activists bent on doing whatever they want and shouting "God approves of it." But do you actually know any gay people personally? Any gay Christians? Have you ever personally known anyone who has gone through this struggle? And if you do, how do you reconcile what you clearly believe about what the Bible teaches about homosexuality with what it teaches about sin? (i.e. that sin is a CHOICE? A choice to seperate ourselves from God. That we are all sinners because we've all made that choice).

There is great comfort in knowing, for certain that you are right. That you have the Truth. (And I know you've said you don't have all the answers, but clearly you are certain that what answers you do have are right). Believe me, I know. . .many in my denomination believe that we, above all other Christians, really have the Truth and we've got the rest of ya'll beat. But there is a lot of danger in it too. The danger of pride, of closing your mind to new light, to growing in your understanding of Scripture, the danger of making God and the Scripture over in our own image. Yes, we conservative Christians can--and do--do it too.

Look, I don't know you. I can't judge you or your walk with the Lord. You seem sincere. All Iknow is how you're coming across.

One thing that is really telling, if you read the gospels, is who Jesus really got worked up about. It wasn't the tax collectors. It wasn't the whores. It wasn't the homosexuals (and you know they were around at the time. Homosexuality--as described by others in earlier posts, the idolatry of the male body, the older man--young boy pairings--was common in the Greek culture of that time). It was you and me. The religious people. The good churchgoers who had it all together. The ones who prayed "Lord, I thank you that I am not like this sinnner over there. . .). The one group of people Jesus really laid into were the religious people. I don't know about you but I think there is an important lesson there for us.

Don't take me wrong. I'm not trying to pile on. I know you're already taking an unpopular stand and that takes courage. But that doesn't automatically mean it's the right stand either.
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Old 06-23-2006, 12:35 AM   #102
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Yes I know that there are more disturbing things ... but as I said before I read that passage when I was very little... I was in primary school, a catholic school by the way, and the nuns let us to read the Bible freely in the spare times and I remember how impressed I was when I read that story... I mean I was to young to even imagine a girl having a kid from her own dad; i didn't even know that sometimes that happens in our time.

As a woman, raised in a catholic enviroment I realised how much the religion have treated women as sinful beings and not deserving of significant place in the Church. It is true that Jesus treated men and women as equals and that's a huge advance, but that's not seen in the Church, this year the Pope said that women can't be priests. I'm not talking about God here, I'm talking about the human institutions that wants to speak for Him. For me God is not represented in the Church, at least not in the best way, and (maybe unfortuantely) I came to the conclusion that , if the Bible has so many contradictions is because we haven't get the message.
I hear you. This is off-topic, but I believe that not all parts of the Bible are appropriate for young children (like say the book of Judges). That doesn't make it bad or wrong. They're just not ready for it yet. I feel the same about movies. Some really conservative Christians (believe me. . .my denomination is VERY conservative) that Rated R films are wrong. I don't. I just don't think they're appropriate for kids. And what rating would the Bible get if you filmed it word for word? Ouch.

But back to topic--sort of. I agree that the Church is a poor representative of God a lot of the time. Course that's easy for me because I'm Protestant. But still...my church won't ordain women as ministers either and I think my church is wrong too. (What's silly is that they can be ministers. Just not "ordained" ones. Ridiculous. Reminds me of this whole thing the Episcopalians got going on. Which is finally back on topic
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Old 06-23-2006, 01:01 AM   #103
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One thing that is really telling, if you read the gospels, is who Jesus really got worked up about. It wasn't the tax collectors. It wasn't the whores. It wasn't the homosexuals (and you know they were around at the time. Homosexuality--as described by others in earlier posts, the idolatry of the male body, the older man--young boy pairings--was common in the Greek culture of that time). It was you and me. The religious people. The good churchgoers who had it all together. The ones who prayed "Lord, I thank you that I am not like this sinnner over there. . .). The one group of people Jesus really laid into were the religious people. I don't know about you but I think there is an important lesson there for us.

This is a great post. I couldn't agree more. Jesus hated hypocrisy and self righteousness above all else.

But we as Christians are also called to defend the faith against false teachers, the "wolves in sheeps clothing." Many Christians are confused by the types of questions being raised here. I am just showing them that not everyone agrees with the answers that Melon provides. The stance I am taking is unpopular here, it may not be politically correct, and almost certainly cast me in a negative light in the Interference crowd. However, if I didn't stand up to what I believe is a false representation a what Christ taught, then I would be failing my duty.

Whether I am right or wrong, you will have to discover that on your own.
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Old 06-23-2006, 01:41 AM   #104
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This is a great post. I couldn't agree more. Jesus hated hypocrisy and self righteousness above all else.

But we as Christians are also called to defend the faith against false teachers, the "wolves in sheeps clothing." Many Christians are confused by the types of questions being raised here. I am just showing them that not everyone agrees with the answers that Melon provides. The stance I am taking is unpopular here, it may not be politically correct, and almost certainly cast me in a negative light in the Interference crowd. However, if I didn't stand up to what I believe is a false representation a what Christ taught, then I would be failing my duty.

Whether I am right or wrong, you will have to discover that on your own.
I know I seem as if I'm picking on you AEON and I'm not. It's just that you seem to be a sincere, loving Christian and so I guess I'm just trying to get you to think a little bit about what you believe as well. You are right that we have to defend the faith against false teachers, but we have to be careful about that as well. Remember that's what the Pharisees were doing--defending the faith against a "false teacher" i.e. Jesus.

I sense that you feel that just because your stance is unpopular, politically incorrect, and will make you look bad then you must be right (after all "if they hated Me, they will hate you" right?). And I guess I'm just suggesting you might want to reconsider that.

Again, I ask do you actually know any gay people? Any gay Christians?

It's fun to be right. Believe me, I love it more than most. But sometimes there are things more important than being "right."
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Old 06-23-2006, 06:55 AM   #105
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If you claim to be a Christian, please, do me a favor and read up on a little Scripture before making grand statements about the faith. This woman obviously "cut and pastes" what she likes from the Bible and "deletes" what she doesn't like.
So again, your brand of Christianity does not cut and paste? Still waiting for my answer to that.

In two threads you attack the leadership of my church and my church itself implying we are not Christians.

I do not agree with maycocksean's post at all.
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