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Old 06-22-2006, 03:43 PM   #61
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The basic assumption of Melon’s argument – which is not different from the million of other activist posts online – is that Paul was not including modern, consensual homosexual relationships in his list of acts of the sinful nature. Surely, a well-educated man like Paul, educated in Greek philosophy and the Hebrew theology -- would have known that homosexuality consisted of more than pederasty and male prostitution. Plato talks about loving homosexual relationships in the Symposium. Therefore, it definitely existed back in Paul’s time – especially in Corinth.

The use of the word arsenokoitai in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 demonstrates that Paul understood the prohibition of adult homosexuality in Leviticus. Many theologians point out that Arsenokoitai, which literally means "male [sexual] beds," is an allusion to Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13.

The "do nots" of Leviticus 18:6-23 and 20:10-21 set forth the sexual boundaries of God’s created order. Among the "do nots" is the prohibition of same-sex relations:
Lev 18:22 "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable"
Lev 20:13: "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman both of them have done what is detestable.” What kind of same-sex activity is in view in these passages? The use of the Hebrew "male" (zakar, "man") rather than "youth" (na’ar) shows that pederasty, youth prostitution, or youth sexual abuse are not the subject. The equal punishment of the parties involved indicates that both are CONSENTING adults. "Their blood be on their heads" (20:13) shows that both are aware of what they are doing and of the consequences. The seriousness of the offense is made plain by the term "detestable" a Hebrew word used of offenses deemed particularly heinous in God's sight.
As far as loving homosexuals as brothers and sisters, of course I do. I do not take their plight lightly. I believe they should be treated with love, integrity, and fairness. I understand the pain in that God has allowed the desire, but forbids the acting on it. I do not claim to know all of the reasons why God does what He does. But I do trust Him, and that one day, probably after I die - I will know the answer. I cannot relate to that particular desire, but I certainly have my share of internal battles.

Love is more than sex. Much more. The Greek word for the love I am speaking of is AGAPE. Agape love is best described in 1 Corinthians 13 - often regarded as one of the most beautiful passages in history. I will post that next.

There are many sins that Jesus didn't call out specifically, it doesn't mean they are not sins. His focus was on love. Love Him and love your brothers and sisters. The closer you are to Him, the more obedient you will become. It is part of the deal.

I cannot look into your heart and see your motivation, only God can. My basic rule of thumb to test my own motivation is this: Is what I'm about to do out of love for me? Or is out of love for others, or God? Will this action bring glory to God? Or to myself?

Is this a perfect system? No. Do I ALWAYS do this test on my actions? Nope. But I do know that day by day God is fulfilling His promise into making more and more into the image of His son, Jesus Christ (Phil 1:6). And I can think of no other being I want to emulate more than Him.
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Old 06-22-2006, 03:47 PM   #62
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In my sick and twisted mind....I think GOD is more than capable of knowing what is in our hearts.....

Have I had sex with a woman I did not love? Have I been with multiple partners? Have I felt temptation in my heart?

Heterosexuals are perfectly capable of fornicating without abandon. So are homosexuals. What does it prove? We are human. WE are capable of doing things that hurt our souls.

Can God see the diference between sexual activity within the context of that relationship I think we all would like to have with someone.
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Old 06-22-2006, 03:48 PM   #63
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Again with the Leviticus......

Has your Chirsitian Church held you to the letter of Leviticus? Can you say you have lived up to the standards of leviticus?
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Old 06-22-2006, 03:55 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
Again with the Leviticus......


I know, I don't know whether to laugh or cry when people use this as their argument.

And so much of Paul's referring to homosexuality is based on Leviticus.
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Old 06-22-2006, 04:14 PM   #65
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[q]I do not take their plight lightly. I believe they should be treated with love, integrity, and fairness.[/q]


my "plight" has also given me the most rewarding source of joy and happiness i've experienced as an adult.

if this God you speak of thinks of this as an abomination, then i think we really need to find ourselves a new God.



this also struck me:

[q]which is not different from the million of other activist posts online[/q]


can we not turn around and deride your understanding of some Biblical passages as little more than "activist" -- which is to say anti-gay activist -- understandings of Scripture?
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Old 06-22-2006, 04:17 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


this also struck me:

[q]which is not different from the million of other activist posts online[/q]


can we not turn around and deride your understanding of some Biblical passages as little more than "activist" -- which is to say anti-gay activist -- understandings of Scripture?
I also found that part quite humourous...
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Old 06-22-2006, 04:29 PM   #67
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Take out Leviticus, you still must contend with all the other New Testament passages.

Leviticus is a starting point. Paul refers to it. I'm sorry if you don't like it.

But this whole discussion is going to end up being a debate about the meaning of the word "is".

At the end of the day, all sexual activity outside of marriage is considered wrong. Gay or not gay. Lust or actual intercourse.

Yes, even Jesus calls this sin out. (Matt 5:27-28) and (Matt 15:19-20).

And the nature of the Christian marriage is clearly spelled out in Ephesians 5. Unless of course, we are now going to debate that the Greek words for man and woman, husband and wife, are now wrong.

Again, I am curious about the nature of Melon's (and the numerous other activist postings) criticism regarding the Biblical passages. Maybe I'm way off, but they don't seem like the normal "I'm a Christian and this passage confuses me.." type of posts.

If you really want to know what the Bible says regarding this and all other issues, do not take my word or Melon's word for it - do your own research. Please - try to understand both points of view, even if you don't agree.

Personally, if I take into account the entire Bible - calling homosexual activity a sin fits right into the general theme regarding sexual immoraility. It takes much more "stretching" and "imagination" to try and assert it is not considered a sin
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Old 06-22-2006, 04:33 PM   #68
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Originally posted by AEON
[B]At the end of the day, all sexual activity outside of marriage is considered wrong. Gay or not gay. Lust or actual intercourse.

so you support gay marriage then? so that gay people will actually be able to choose to not have sex outside of marriage since, now, there's no option -- any sex is sex outside of marriage (except in Massachusetts).

if not, then just what is a homosexual to do?

can we love each other, but just not fuck? isn't that what this is really all about?
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Old 06-22-2006, 04:35 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

my "plight" has also given me the most rewarding source of joy and happiness i've experienced as an adult.

Just because something feels good, doesn't make it right.
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Old 06-22-2006, 04:37 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511



can we love each other, but just not fuck? isn't that what this is really all about?
I believe that is precisely what the Bible is advocating.
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Old 06-22-2006, 04:41 PM   #71
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Just because something feels good, doesn't make it right.


so just because love feels good, that doesn't make it right?

have you ever been in love?
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Old 06-22-2006, 04:41 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON
Take out Leviticus, you still must contend with all the other New Testament passages.

Leviticus is a starting point. Paul refers to it. I'm sorry if you don't like it.
Have you read Leviticus? I mean all of Leviticus? If so explain elimination of all the other man made laws of Leviticus?


Quote:
Originally posted by AEON

At the end of the day, all sexual activity outside of marriage is considered wrong. Gay or not gay. Lust or actual intercourse.

Yes, even Jesus calls this sin out. (Matt 5:27-28) and (Matt 15:19-20).

And the nature of the Christian marriage is clearly spelled out in Ephesians 5. Unless of course, we are now going to debate that the Greek words for man and woman, husband and wife, are now wrong.

I love how so many cop out to this argument. So you focus on sex outside of marriage and then say because we don't allow you to marry you'll be forced to sin?

So just because the first marriage was one between heterosexuals means no homosexuals can ever marry? How many openly gay relationships were there then? This is all they knew. I mean these were men who thought the earth was flat. If they wrote that in the Bible would you believe that?
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Old 06-22-2006, 04:43 PM   #73
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I believe that is precisely what the Bible is advocating.


so you're admitting that romantic love is very much possible between two gay people, however they can never, ever consummate this love?

but straight people can.

so it is about sex, isn't it? it's about fucking.
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Old 06-22-2006, 04:44 PM   #74
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I believe that is precisely what the Bible is advocating.
This is the worse argument I've ever heard.

If this is the case then you should support lesbian marriage and lesbian bishops.
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Old 06-22-2006, 04:46 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON

Just because something feels good, doesn't make it right.
It "feels good" for Irvine to be the person that he is, not to deny that in order to be considered acceptable by anyone or any group. Sorry but you really have no right to tell him otherwise, no one does.

My "Christian walk" led me to Jesus as the ultimate source of love and empathy. What he gave me when I was at the lowest point in my life (and what He continues to give me every day) made me want to give the same to others who feel they are "outcasts" for whatever reason. And I believe that is what He demands of us. There is a reason that Jesus sought out the "outcasts".
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