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Old 10-07-2005, 04:57 PM   #1
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english catholics to american evangelicals: Bible not literally true

Quote:
Catholic Church no longer swears by truth of the Bible
By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent

THE hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church has published a teaching document instructing the faithful that some parts of the Bible are not actually true.

The Catholic bishops of England, Wales and Scotland are warning their five million worshippers, as well as any others drawn to the study of scripture, that they should not expect “total accuracy” from the Bible.

“We should not expect to find in Scripture full scientific accuracy or complete historical precision,” they say in The Gift of Scripture.

The document is timely, coming as it does amid the rise of the religious Right, in particular in the US.

Some Christians want a literal interpretation of the story of creation, as told in Genesis, taught alongside Darwin’s theory of evolution in schools, believing “intelligent design” to be an equally plausible theory of how the world began.

But the first 11 chapters of Genesis, in which two different and at times conflicting stories of creation are told, are among those that this country’s Catholic bishops insist cannot be “historical”. At most, they say, they may contain “historical traces”.

The document shows how far the Catholic Church has come since the 17th century, when Galileo was condemned as a heretic for flouting a near-universal belief in the divine inspiration of the Bible by advocating the Copernican view of the solar system. Only a century ago, Pope Pius X condemned Modernist Catholic scholars who adapted historical-critical methods of analysing ancient literature to the Bible.

In the document, the bishops acknowledge their debt to biblical scholars. They say the Bible must be approached in the knowledge that it is “God’s word expressed in human language” and that proper acknowledgement should be given both to the word of God and its human dimensions.

They say the Church must offer the gospel in ways “appropriate to changing times, intelligible and attractive to our contemporaries”.

The Bible is true in passages relating to human salvation, they say, but continue: “We should not expect total accuracy from the Bible in other, secular matters.”

They go on to condemn fundamentalism for its “intransigent intolerance” and to warn of “significant dangers” involved in a fundamentalist approach.

“Such an approach is dangerous, for example, when people of one nation or group see in the Bible a mandate for their own superiority, and even consider themselves permitted by the Bible to use violence against others.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...811332,00.html
the article is very interesting, and they get very specific:



Quote:
BELIEVE IT OR NOT

UNTRUE

Genesis ii, 21-22

So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept he took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh; and the rib which the Lord God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man

Genesis iii, 16

God said to the woman [after she was beguiled by the serpent]: “I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”


Matthew xxvii, 25

The words of the crowd: “His blood be on us and on our children.”


Revelation xix,20

And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had worked the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshipped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with brimstone.”


TRUE

Exodus iii, 14

God reveals himself to Moses as: “I am who I am.”


Leviticus xxvi,12

“I will be your God, and you shall be my people.”


Exodus xx,1-17

The Ten Commandments

Matthew v,7

The Sermon on the Mount

Mark viii,29

Peter declares Jesus to be the Christ

Luke i

The Virgin Birth

John xx,28

Proof of bodily resurrection


all seems to affirm the obvious to me: demanding that schools acknoweldge, teach, or even give credence to the idea that the world was created in 6 days a few thousand years ago is not an expression of "religious belief;" it's an expression of superstition and willful belief in that which is demonstrably and empirically untrue.
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Old 10-07-2005, 05:38 PM   #2
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This isn't new news. The Catholic Church has had documents preaching against Biblical fundamentalism since at least 1987.

What amuses me more is the fact that so few Catholics seem to be knowledgable about their own faith, except for when it comes to hot button finger pointing and who to be bigoted towards.

Melon
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Old 10-07-2005, 06:20 PM   #3
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We've been through all this before. It is far easier to follow God your own way when you get to rip out the pages you don't like.
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Old 10-07-2005, 07:12 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
It is far easier to follow God your own way when you get to rip out the pages you don't like.
And then post them for public inspection...hmmm, you're right, that IS just like Martin Luther.
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Old 10-07-2005, 07:14 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
We've been through all this before. It is far easier to follow God your own way when you get to rip out the pages you don't like.
Or bend the words to your own bigotries...
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Old 10-07-2005, 07:36 PM   #6
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the bible is 100% accurate and literal. accpet this and move on. don't even think about it. god really did make the sun stand still at joshua's request...despite the fact that the sun doesn't move.
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Old 10-07-2005, 07:45 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon
What amuses me more is the fact that so few Catholics seem to be knowledgable about their own faith
I would have to agree with this. I went to a Catholic school in Mississippi for a few years where courses in Catholic intellectual history and doctrine were required, which apparently is atypical--and I gather Catholic "Sunday schools" tend to emphasize "wishy-washy Christian Life stuff" (as one Catholic friend put it) rather than filling in these gaps. Why is that? Vatican II, or a kind of laziness, or "Protestantization," or what? Anyway, I often find myself in the bizarre situation of having to clarify the intellectual context of some doctrinal point or another for Catholics I know.

Honestly though...if it weren't for the attempts to force creationism into our public schools, I would have no problems with it. Some ultra-Orthodox American Jews teach the Bible this way also, but in the context of their own yeshivot--which is where it belongs. It doesn't keep them from coexisting peacefully with, and believing in the virtues of, a society where church and state are separate.
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Old 10-07-2005, 07:58 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
We've been through all this before. It is far easier to follow God your own way when you get to rip out the pages you don't like.


and to surrender your own intellect, experience, and conscience as well as centuries of scientific thought and exploration in addition to different viewpoints all to translated words on a page.
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Old 10-07-2005, 08:02 PM   #9
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“Such an approach is dangerous, for example, when people of one nation or group see in the Bible a mandate for their own superiority, and even consider themselves permitted by the Bible to use violence against others.”



WORD.
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Old 10-07-2005, 08:02 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
and to surrender your own intellect, experience, and conscience as well as centuries of scientific thought and exploration in addition to different viewpoints all to translated words on a page.
As I see it, if people want to surrender to preposterous, mythical lies to believe in God, then so be it. They'll just have to spend their whole lives wrong.

And this article here kind of accents why I get angry at the Catholic Church. They'll have such moments of rational clarity, but then ruin it with irrational bigotry and their own batch of preposterous, mythical lies that have nothing to do with God.

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Old 10-07-2005, 08:04 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon
This isn't new news. The Catholic Church has had documents preaching against Biblical fundamentalism since at least 1987.

What amuses me more is the fact that so few Catholics seem to be knowledgable about their own faith, except for when it comes to hot button finger pointing and who to be bigoted towards.

Melon
Hey, I am a Catholic. I hope you count me in the "so few" there.
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Old 10-07-2005, 08:08 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
We've been through all this before. It is far easier to follow God your own way when you get to rip out the pages you don't like.
The Catholic Church ripped out pages it didn´t like in the Middle Age. Don´t forget that.

Also, don´t forget the Bible is contradictional. Jesus wasn´t exactly a fan of the Old Testament, was he?
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Old 10-07-2005, 08:11 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars
The Catholic Church ripped out pages it didn´t like in the Middle Age. Don´t forget that.

Also, don´t forget the Bible is contradictional. Jesus wasn´t exactly a fan of the Old Testament, was he?
Well, to add to this sentiment, let's not forget all the "page ripping" of Protestant Bibles too. Martin Luther took out all that "apocrypha" that all eventually ended up found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Admittedly, if I am to read a Bible, my preferred texts are Catholic. Their generally scholarly sound footnotes are another good moment of clarity for the Church.

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Old 10-07-2005, 08:11 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars
Also, don´t forget the Bible is contradictional. Jesus wasn´t exactly a fan of the Old Testament, was he?
That is an excellent point. I have no problem when God defines something for us. It is when people decide to take God's place that gives me heartburn.

An honest question: how do you deal with a passage of Scripture that you don't like?
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Old 10-07-2005, 08:15 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
That is an excellent point. I have no problem when God defines something for us. It is when people decide to take God's place that gives me heartburn.

An honest question: how do you deal with a passage of Scripture that you don't like?
How did people approach the passage where St. Paul instructs that women are not supposed to teach over men? They ignored it when they realized that it wasn't true. And the determination that it was "false" was based solely on life experience and maybe a good dose of "divine revelation" from the Holy Spirit. Most "good Christian men," after all, are either taught by women in institutional schools or by their mothers if homeschooled.

Melon
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