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Old 09-28-2001, 09:36 AM   #16
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(Jesus speaking): "You will hear of wars and rumors of wars. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows" (Matthew 24:6-8).

I don't see that as some type of Apocalyptic prophecy as it came from the Gospel of Matthew as opposed to Revelation; moreover, I see it as His statement of what will occur throughout time, perhaps leading up to the speculative "endtimes."

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[This message has been edited by U2Bama (edited 09-28-2001).]
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Old 09-28-2001, 10:00 AM   #17
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
He may have claimed to be a Christian, but that doesn't necessarily make him one. Only the Lord knows if a person is truly a Christian. Yes, being a Christian is simply a matter of believing. But not believing as in saying "I believe that Christ died for our sins. There, now I can carry on with my life as I see fit". Nope, the belief the Bible speaks about is a belief that goes deep that colors what you do and makes you sing praises to The Father and seek his will. The Word says that good works are not necessary to get you to Heaven, but it does make clear that if you are a Christian, the fruit will show, and that works are a natural production of being a believer. Did Ivan the Terrible really have Christ in his heart? Only God truly knows. But his fruit didn't show it. "They'll know we are Christians by our love".
Thanks. I had suspected this, as this was the approach Martin Luther took to the whole question of "faith vs. good works"; that it was only faith that saved, but that good works will naturally come out of faith. I didn't know if this somehow was different in other ideologies within Protestantism.

But it's truly a toss up in the Bible regarding faith vs. good works. The epistle of James mentions that "faith without good works is dead" (James 2:14-26), which is likely the basis for the necessity of faith and good works for salvation in Catholicism.

However, getting back to Martin Luther, his main reason for saying that faith was the only means for salvation was due to stunts like "indulgences," where you could buy your way into Heaven. Hence, you were doing a "good work" by handing money over to the Church. With this perspective, I think that everyone would agree with Martin Luther; but I would counterargue that such things as buying indulgences were simply not good works to begin with. It would be like saying that Ivan the Terrible's compulsory church funerals for those he executed were good works to negate his bad ones. Rather, I would say that they were "selfish works."

However, this looks nearly like a semantical idea nowadays. Faith and good works for salvation, versus faith for salvation with good works being an expression of true faith.

This is perhaps the most civil religious discussion I've ever had!

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time
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Old 09-28-2001, 10:12 AM   #18
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Originally posted by U2Bama:
(Jesus speaking): "You will hear of wars and rumors of wars. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows" (Matthew 24:6-8).

I don't see that as some type of Apocalyptic prophecy as it came from the Gospel of Matthew as opposed to Revelation; moreover, I see it as His statement of what will occur throughout time, perhaps leading up to the speculative "endtimes."
I agree. All of this stuff has occurred before, during, and after Jesus. It doesn't take a prophet to know this is true.

--Nations and kingdoms constantly were fighting then, more so than even now. The stakes are just higher now, with weapons of mass destruction.

--Famines, pestilences, and earthquakes are all, unfortunately, common occurrances. This was particularly an issue with the Mediterranean, as it really is a mesh of many climates, with the lushness of Europe and the dryness of the deserts in North Africa. There are some major fault lines over there, but earthquakes aren't as common as volcanoes. "Pestilences" are also a cycle of nature, which they didn't understand back then. America's latest "pestilence" was the Japanese lady bug, and boy did they come out in droves last year, but it appears that they have waned as they are settling in.

None of this stuff is new, and, I think of it more as an analogy to the bad that will happen in the world before "the end."

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time
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Old 09-28-2001, 01:58 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:The Word says that good works are not necessary to get you to Heaven, but it does make clear that if you are a Christian, the fruit will show, and that works are a natural production of being a believer. Did Ivan the Terrible really have Christ in his heart? Only God truly knows. But his fruit didn't show it. "They'll know we are Christians by our love".
Yes! Love God, love your neighbor as yourself!

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