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Old 08-07-2006, 07:14 PM   #46
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar




Well when you find an equal amount of women pouring alcohol down men's throat and coercing them to strip, then you can use this line of thinking...
Yes, because these women are being pinned down and forced to drink large amounds of alcohol. If I get wasted and go beat up old ladies I'm still to blame. Drunkenness doesn't equal no accountability.
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Old 08-07-2006, 07:18 PM   #47
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i feel like i'm an undergrad again! bell hooks! haven't read her since sophomore year.

anyway, no time to respond in full, but i will tomorrow.

i have to go play poker and grill with a bunch of straight guys.

seriously.

i think the only thing i want to quickly say is that i don't mean to hijack this thread and turn it into a thread about homosexuality; rather, my intention is to use homosexuality as a lense through which we can better study the male gaze, as well as better understand the male sexual impulse that has made Mr. Francis very wealthy indeed.
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Old 08-07-2006, 07:40 PM   #48
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Subvert my narrative, baby. Has anyone ever told you how cute you are when you're interrogating the hegemonic discursive framework?

I also am laughing bemusedly at the unplanned revisitations of long-forgotten undergrad-style ideological wars here. And I am likewise guilty of partially hijacking the thread.

I probably will be spending my evening playing board games with preschoolers, however.
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Old 08-07-2006, 09:34 PM   #49
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Yes, because these women are being pinned down and forced to drink large amounds of alcohol. If I get wasted and go beat up old ladies I'm still to blame. Drunkenness doesn't equal no accountability.

You're missing the point. I'm not saying there's no accountability. I'm saying you don't have instances like this where sober women are taking advantage of drunk men and making millions of dollars. If there were, I'd think we'd be "protective" of the men.
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Old 08-07-2006, 10:04 PM   #50
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That may be true. My point is that the girls are to blame just as much in this situation. Treating them like victims will only make it worse because it will lower accountability.
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Old 08-08-2006, 09:26 AM   #51
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actually, this is the point i was sort of getting at.

there seems to be an impulse to "protect" women from their own sexuality, however it might be expressed. we can talk about incentives or disincentives all we want, but what we're essentially reinforcing is the narrative that women aren't capable of making truly informed, consented decisions about their own actions.

and that might be true.

but how many women would agree with that?
Women are capable of that, but the key is that it is a situation of true equality. Where is there any equality in any of these situations with Joe Francis? There certainly is no financial equality, there is no relationship equality there, he is taking advantage of them with liquor and physical force (the situation described in the article certainly seemed like rape in my eyes) and with his alleged power and fame. Who is getting more out of it in every way? Joe Francis.

How can women in situations like that be making informed, consented decisions? I don't want to protect women from their own sexuality, I want to protect them from pig, criminal scum such as Joe Francis. I want them to be free to have sex with good, positive, respectable men who will treat them in the way in which they deserve to be treated.

I would never presume to call these women "sluts"- my feeling is that in many cases these girls and women are doing this because of low self-esteem, they honestly believe it's some sort of fame, issues in their past with family and with men-a myriad of reasons.

The ultimate accountability lies with Joe Francis- if people don't feel that way after reading that article alone well, I just don't get that. I hope he will get what he deserves one day, whatever that may be.
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Old 08-08-2006, 09:58 AM   #52
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I'm so glad my mother always taught me to create some self-esteem and to never ever let myself be abused (emotionally and/or physically) or exploited by any man... I am thankful for that, and also very very thankful that I have not fallen into the hands of any of these kind of men. Still am very young relatively spoken, but I am sure, that this will not happen to me, I have a better sense of dignity and self-value than that...

And as for the exploitations? I'm disgusted at the fact that it still happens...
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Old 08-08-2006, 10:45 AM   #53
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I have no doubt that some of the women (underage girls) in Francis' videos or otherwise in the vicinity of GGW have been truly victimized/raped through being unknowlingly drugged or demands to stop being ignored. But I do think they are likely a small minority and have been paid off to keep quiet. So do women need to be protected from Joe Francis? Probably.

Let's remove Francis for a moment though because some of his outrageously disgusting and criminal personal conduct is clouding the premise behind the success of Girls Gone Wild.

Do women need protection from men in clubs with video cameras and release forms providing endless (voluntary) alcohol and wild parties?

NO. And I think most of them in the videos would agree. You can't call it liberating and empowering if you don't take responsibility. Whether it actually IS empowering is a different matter. Aside from the general exhibitionists who like male attention (however they can get it), those hoping for the possibility of fame and fortune and getting only a tshirt is like buying a lotto ticket. You know the odds but for some reason you buy a ticket anyway. So if you feel cheap and used after the fact, who is to blame?
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Old 08-08-2006, 10:53 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen

I would never presume to call these women "sluts"- my feeling is that in many cases these girls and women are doing this because of low self-esteem, they honestly believe it's some sort of fame, issues in their past with family and with men-a myriad of reasons.


i was trying to set aside Francis for a while and concentrate on our assumptions that women who get drunk and then take off their clothes are only doing it because they have low self-esteem, are desperate for attention, don't know what they are doing, etc.

i honestly reject all that. do some women? of course. but i think it's entirely possible that there are women in those videos who are perfectly fine with it, or might be embarassed, but not because they were exploited but because they simply made a fool out of themselves.

this does get back to some earlier threads. i think there are some highly promiscuous women who have many partners not because there's something wrong with them, but simply because they like to fuck. i think there are some women who feel as if being a stripper is a perfectly acceptable and enjoyable way to earn money and don't strip because their fathers ignored them or something. i think there are women who are prostitutes becasue they are happy to make money by having sex, and not because they have low self-esteem or no other way to make money.

are there women who do all of these things because they are damaged in some way? because they lack the education or opportunity to get better jobs? absolutely.

but that's not always the case, nor is it always the case that these girls on the "GGW" videos don't know *exactly* what they are doing and don't feel themselves exploited in the least. what i do get a sense of is more than a bit of patronization -- "poor dear, you know not what you do" -- in many of the posts in this thread.

and while i agree, yes, often it is warrented, i am very hesitatant to think that every girl in the "GGW" video is some poor little thing at the mercy of forces more powerful than herself.
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Old 08-08-2006, 11:21 AM   #55
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Originally posted by Irvine511
i am very hesitatant to think that every girl in the "GGW" video is some poor little thing at the mercy of forces more powerful than herself.
Although that idea is the essence of what has differentiated Girls Gone Wild from other porn and made it so successful and mainstream...genuine (? ha) surrender by everyday good girls to their own inner wild child. The same idea that fuels rape fantasies and good girl in public/slut in the bedroom fantasies.
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Old 08-08-2006, 11:52 AM   #56
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Although that idea is the essence of what has differentiated Girls Gone Wild from other porn and made it so successful and mainstream...genuine (? ha) surrender by everyday good girls to their own inner wild child. The same idea that fuels rape fantasies and good girl in public/slut in the bedroom fantasies.


that's a very keen insight (though i don't agree about the rape fantasy, as a "rape fantasy" is usually considered a female fantasy) -- the fantasy being peddled is that, say you're a 45 year old guy with a gut, maybe, just maybe, she'll have sex with you (or at least show you her barely legal ta-ta's) if she's drunk and on Spring Break.

still, what if she knows this? how exploitative is it if she shows you her tits and then you buy her drinks all night and then she just goes home with her friends and passes out?

i have been to a straight strip club exactly twice, and thought it was the biggest hustle ever, with women deflowering men of hundreds and hundreds of dollars and the men walking away with nothing but a drunken set of blue balls.

now, is that empowering for women, as Paglia might say? i think it would depend upon the attitudes of each individual woman and her specific circumstance, but i think we can say that the men are getting the raw end of the deal.
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Old 08-08-2006, 12:04 PM   #57
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Men have rape fantasies too...and very much around the idea that a woman surrenders herself to him, especially the conquest of good girls/virgins. So yes, this is very much one of the fantasies being sold to men on these DVDs.

I will have to count to 100 before giving a coherent response to the rest of your post.

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Old 08-08-2006, 12:24 PM   #58
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Men have rape fantasies too...and very much around the idea that a woman surrenders herself to him, especially the conquest of good girls/virgins. So yes, this is very much one of the fantasies being sold to men on these DVDs.

I will have to count to 100 before giving a coherent response to the rest of your post.



well ... to be technical about it, the "rape fantasy" is most often associated with women, whereas with a man, it might be more "attempted rape until she realizes just how awesome you are and gives herself over wholly to you."

but, hey, i don't have either of these fantasies, so i might be completely wrong.



awaiting your next response with trepidation ...
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Old 08-08-2006, 01:02 PM   #59
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Haha I had to go to a meeting actually so I won't bite lol.

But my immediate reaction to your observation that women find empowerment in cheating men in bad faith in clubs by accepting free drinks rubbed me the wrong way. If your date buys you dinner do you owe him a blow job? Gimme a break.

But...

Since I had a chance to avoid the work aspects of my meeting early to think about this a bit ...when you strip away (sorry, I like puns) all the he said/she said in discussions about cross-exploitation in sexuality and how it escalates with blurred gender roles/expectations, where does it eventually lead? More marginalizing of and violence against women by men.

Joe Francis may be a good micro example of that? He knows the underlying power of the good-girl-conquered fantasy he's selling (to both the women on video and the men buying them) as the secret to his success, but now that the tables have turned and he says he's feeling exploited by their ambitions and motivations, he's had to excalate the fantasy or at least the appearance of the fantasy. Desperate to keep his power and influence, he has resorted to drugging, raping and seeking underage girls.

If I'm making sense at all it shows that women using their sexuality for short term gain/empowerment lose big time in the long run.
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Old 08-08-2006, 01:29 PM   #60
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[B]But my immediate reaction to your observation that women find empowerment in cheating men in bad faith in clubs by accepting free drinks rubbed me the wrong way. If your date buys you dinner do you owe him a blow job? Gimme a break.

woah, woah, woah. that's not what i said at all. and the leap from dinner to blow job is a total misreading -- what i had said was how bad is it if a woman essentially uses her "assets" to get a silly male to buy her drinks, and then she goes home by herself or with friends. she's essentially exploited the man in the example, and while i'm not condoning the exploitation of either gender, i do think such an example subverts the "poor little thing, she knows not what she does" attitude we've seen so much of in this thread.

i said that some women might find stripping or even being a prostitute empowering because they are using sexuality to earn income, and i would also argue that taboos against such activities are expressions of the good girl/bad girl, madonna/whore forced dichotomy that trap women. i also said that some women might choose these professions, in good faith, when other options might be available to them. i do not think this is common, but i do think it is certainly possible.



Quote:
Since I had a chance to avoid the work aspects of my meeting early to think about this a bit ...when you strip away (sorry, I like puns) all the he said/she said in discussions about cross-exploitation in sexuality and how it escalates with blurred gender roles/expectations, where does it eventually lead? More marginalizing of and violence against women by men.

so are you anti-pornography?
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