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Old 08-04-2006, 07:58 PM   #16
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There's no way you can tell if a person is happy or not just by looking at them. You have to be that person to know it. Seriously, what this guy is doing is disgusting.
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Old 08-05-2006, 03:45 AM   #17
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But who is buying these videos? After all, you don't see any videos entitled "girls going to med school" or "girls getting a PhD".
It's with this in mind that most people are going to have an element of instant respect for anyone, and this absolutely includes women, who do achieve something like a PhD or go through med school. In reality, society actually values this a whole lot more - yet the sleaze element is still sought after by girls with great physique and show absolutely nothing of what is going on upstairs. What takes this group of women who have at least one thing in common, to forego their other skills, like intelligence or talent, and leads them into thinking stripping themselves bare in the most truly appealing way is better? I believe everyone can excel in some way. Having a great arse requires nothing, unlike say veterinary science or becoming a brilliant singer, etc.
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Old 08-05-2006, 03:55 AM   #18
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Total sleaze, if he breaks the law then come down upon him like a ton of bricks but otherwise I don't have any in principle problem with the Girls Gone Wild enterprise, it's surprising that nobody was able to use the idea earlier.
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Old 08-05-2006, 04:48 AM   #19
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One more disturbing consequence of the increasing celebrification and spectacle-ification of pretty much everything. It's no surprise that Francis got his start in "reality television"--this is probably where he learned that the conceit of "spontaneity" exponentially increases the voyeuristic gratification value of whatever "wildness" gets caught on film. What could be more titillating than the premise that "the girl next door" (to use his phrase) turns out to be "ready and willing and a dirty slut"?

The reasons some of the girls quoted gave for wanting to be filmed reminded me of an article I read a few years back, where the reporter asked several teenaged hopefuls at a modeling tryout what their reasons for wanting to become models were. Instead of enthusing "I love clothing and makeup and fashion and glamour" or whatever you might think, most of their reasons were banal solipsisms like "I just want other girls to want to be me." Of course, they were just teenagers, so this wasn't totally surprising; kids that age in general tend to be preoccupied with attracting the attention and envy of others as an end in itself. But it also reflects a troubling confusion of the interests of the consumer with the interests of the entertainer where entertainment--as business, as product--is concerned. Once you sign that contract and get in front of that camera, it's no longer about armchair fantasies of starring in your proverbial 15 minutes; you've now also become a product, and parties other than your audience now have an interest in what they can get from that product...meaning the responsibility now rests with you--ready or not--to understand what the worth of that product is and negotiate its use accordingly.

Can a drunk 18-year-old who's also high from the Spring Break/nightclub buzz reasonably be expected to grasp such a responsibility? Legally speaking, evidently yes, but ethically speaking, I'm inclined to think not, and that's what makes Francis' "business" setup disturbing, even setting aside the neon-sign indicators that he's an exploitative cad in ways that go way beyond that setup. I don't doubt that many if not most of these girls regard the whole thing as a kind of cheeky lark both before and afterwards, but again, there's some troubling confusion involved as to who's cheeking who. Who is really getting rich and famous? Who is really "liberating" their sexual license? Who is really winning (some) men's admiration with their boldness and swagger? Who is really getting the last laugh at the contradictory list of things society expects their gender to be? The awful irony of that comment from the woman Francis raped cuts directly to the ugly imbalance of power underlying it all:
Quote:
"It didn't feel good to me at all, but I was totally faking it because I was on 'Girls Gone Wild.'"
A perfect vicious circle: the desire to be "famous" so that "people will give you anything you want" leads to doing precisely what you don't want so that other people can get famous--or just get what they want--at your expense. Which of course was the idea all along--for Francis to get famous, and his consumers to get what they paid their $9.99 for. And all you got was this stupid T-shirt...and maybe a $0.00 laugh with your friends, if you're lucky.

Francis' own bizarre, if depressingly familiar, mixture of attraction to and contempt for the women he "works with" mirrors this irony right back: the "qwerty keyboard" taunts; the rants about [expletives] who don't "get" the First Amendment; the laments about the halcyon days of "innocent spontaneity" giving way to being rudely "hounded" by "calculating exhibitionists"; the careening back and forth between bullying brutality and perversely tender "I'm sorry, baby, give me a kiss" crooning.

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[Sociologist and Tulane University assistant professor Vicki] Mayer has studied the young cameramen, who, she says, often sign up because they hope to break into Hollywood. Usually, she says, they end up disillusioned after spending night after night with women who lose their inhibitions for a T-shirt. "As much as it would be easy to see this as a simple relationship of men treating women a certain way, there are mutual relations of exploitation. I kind of feel like both sides could be seen as exploited." She's concluded that the winners are "the owners of these companies who are contracting cheap labor and free talent for a media product."
It would be interesting to read some of Mayer's perspectives on this (and on the women involved, as well)--one of the first things that occurred to me as I read about their filming process was to wonder just how many poorly paid nights of coaxing yet another round of rote "show-us-your-tits" scenes out of yet another fleeting sequence of drunken "I-want-everybody-to-see-me-because-I'm-hot" teenagers it would take before the whole gig lost any semblance of appeal whatsoever.
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Old 08-05-2006, 09:22 AM   #20
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I just read that article, he is one sick f'er and a disgusting pig - and a criminal in my eyes.

Yeah, he "loves women".

It's so typical that he reacts that way to women who "dare" to challenge him, accuse him, file charges against him.

What a complete and total loser. I don't understand how anyone can read that article and be nonchalant about what this guy is doing.
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Old 08-05-2006, 04:50 PM   #21
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I've finally made it through the article and maybe I should comment but yolland has already covered by opinion excellently.
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Old 08-05-2006, 07:15 PM   #22
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Tit's surprising that nobody was able to use the idea earlier.
Hugh Hefner comes to mind lol. Or maybe he's more of a new millenium Larry Flynt.

Nothing new here, the game has just evolved with technology.

As long as there are women who think they can get somewhere using T&A, there will be men like this who profit from it although they are nothing more than pimps who found a way around the rules.
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Old 08-05-2006, 07:41 PM   #23
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Well porn has been around for a good long while but the marketing strategy and the style is a step apart from Playboy and Hustler, I don't see why people are so opposed in principle to these people and their product.
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Old 08-06-2006, 09:12 AM   #24
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Well porn has been around for a good long while but the marketing strategy and the style is a step apart from Playboy and Hustler, I don't see why people are so opposed in principle to these people and their product.
Did you read the article? If you did you still don't understand why people are opposed to this person and how he creates his "product"? I've never heard that Hugh Hefner or even Larry Flynt conducted themselves or their business in such a manner- or used underage girls, drugged them, or raped girls, or threatened/physically strongarmed female reporters. I'm no expert in them or their porn, so maybe someone who knows more could enlighten me.

What Joe Francis does, according to this article, is not a "marketing style and strategy"- sorry, you've got to be kidding. Is assault, threat of assault, rape a "strategy"?
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Old 08-06-2006, 10:23 AM   #25
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Darnell Riley is an American hero.

This all ends badly one day for Francis. An angry father or brother. A shotgun or a baseball bat.

As for the girls, well, this country is screwed:

"You want people to say, 'Hey, I saw you.' Everybody wants to be famous in some way. Getting famous will get me anything I want. If I walk into somebody's house and said, 'Give me this,' I could have it."
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Old 08-06-2006, 05:11 PM   #26
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Not just empowering the sexist pig, but encouraging the cheap slut. It's a shame that both sexes are being encouraged to disrespect themselves and others.

In all honesty and reality most of these girls are just as guilty as this moronic guy though. Most know very well what they're dong and are more than happy to obectify themselves. They hurt the image of a respectable woman as much as any sexist guy.
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Old 08-06-2006, 09:02 PM   #27
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Drawing any moral equivalence between Joe Francis and the individual women his company profits from is more than a bit of a stretch--five minutes of drunken Spring Break exhibitionism can't be compared to the decade-long record of personal and business misconduct that's earned Francis and his lawyers a long string of breach of contract, invasion of privacy, sexual assault, and FTC charges, as well as restraining orders.

It is true, though, that the question nb initially asked--which the reporter also asked, in recalling her high school friends who joined the "Horny Club" in exchange for Trans Am rides--is an important one, which any sociological analysis of this phenomenon must contend with: Why do so many women willingly flock to nightclubs and beach parties where they know Francis and his crew will be in attendance, hoping to get their moment in front of the camera, and knowing fully well that these are after all just porn videos? Obviously, longstanding social and cultural messages that a woman's worth hinges on her physical desirability is a big part of it. But it would be an oversimplification to attribute the appeal solely to that: the culture of celebrity worship, where making oneself into a spectacle--by pretty much any available means--is seen as highly desirable, in and of itself (and the "reality TV" voyeurism which accompanies it), obviously plays a big role as well. As does the confused bundle of messages about female sexual empowerment that emerged from 1990s feminism of the "girl power" variety (Paglia, Roiphe, Bright, Califia et al.--though that's just the bookish end of it; also think Madonna, "riot grrrl", etc.), which promoted the idea that voluntary sexual self-objectification could be highly empowering for a woman, so long as she was fundamentally in control of the situation and profiting from it. (For example, Paglia regarded self-employed call girls as renegade heroines, and all of the above heaped scorn on anti-pornography feminists like Andrea Dworkin and Catharine MacKinnon, regarding them as prim and frigid enablers of patriarchal paternalism.)

To be fair, in my experience most academic feminists of this type, at least, would not consider "Girls Gone Wild" to be an example of such "empowerment," as it pretty obviously flunks both the "profit" test (the women are not paid) and the "fundamentally in control" test (though participation is voluntary, it's Francis and his crew who dictate the action--cajoling and directing the women to "show us your boobs," "now bend over and show us your thong," "now French-kiss your friend," etc., often with additional prodding from a crowd of hyped-up onlookers who are likewise whooping and egging the women on). And this all goes back to why the conceit of "spontaneity" underlying it all--which Francis obviously has a huge interest in maintaining--is so troubling. I have to suspect that, ironically, far, far fewer women would be interested in participating if they were paid for their appearances, because then it would seem "cheap" and "beneath me"--plus, the reassuringly ego-flattering (if delusory) pretense of "I'm a girl renegade, boldly showing off my bod" would be gone. It's a bit like one of those mean-spirited tricks we probably all remember from childhood, where you exclaim "Look! What's that!?" to make a friend look away, then cuff them on the chin or nose when they unwittingly comply...yet the premise is it's all just a friendly "joke," haha, no biggie--so the joker feels justified in laughing, and the jokee feels too complicit in the whole situation to take offense.

As a parent, I would never give consent for either my sons or my daughter to attend the sort of "party" where this kind of crap goes on, any more than I would endorse their attending a frat party where young male pledges are going to be publically humiliated under similar pretenses. It may well all be perfectly legal, and I appreciate that the precedents we might have to set to make it illegal would themselves be problematic in all sorts of ways, but nonetheless it's sick behavior all around, and not compatible with the sort of respect for others we are raising our children to have.
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Old 08-06-2006, 09:09 PM   #28
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general philosophical question -- do we have the same problems with "Guys Gone Wild"?
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Old 08-06-2006, 09:12 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen


Did you read the article? If you did you still don't understand why people are opposed to this person and how he creates his "product"? I've never heard that Hugh Hefner or even Larry Flynt conducted themselves or their business in such a manner- or used underage girls, drugged them, or raped girls, or threatened/physically strongarmed female reporters. I'm no expert in them or their porn, so maybe someone who knows more could enlighten me.

What Joe Francis does, according to this article, is not a "marketing style and strategy"- sorry, you've got to be kidding. Is assault, threat of assault, rape a "strategy"?
I read the article, he sounds like a very unsavoury character and bedding that girl does strike me as bordering on rape. But the comment was in relation to the marketing strategy of selling tapes of amatuers exposing themselves over cable TV, a strategy that has made a lot of cash - that is a bit different than Playboy or Hustler and it does not by definition entail rape or assualt.
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Old 08-06-2006, 09:13 PM   #30
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general philosophical question -- do we have the same problems with "Guys Gone Wild"?
No, but then that one doesn't get nearly as much market share
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