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Old 11-17-2006, 08:06 AM   #91
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Originally posted by AEON
I don't think Paul was misogynistic at all. He only comes across that way when people fail to read the entire letter or they fail to understand the context and circumstances of the letter.
I agree. Likewise, when people fail to read the entire letter or fail to understand the context and circumstances of the letter, they are likely to come to homophobic conclusions. I think it would be difficult to prove that Christ taught such an attitude, as well.
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Old 11-17-2006, 08:14 AM   #92
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Also, sex with birth control and masturbation are sins if you're from the Catholic church, but not many other denominations.
Of course not. It would require imposing unrealistic sexual mores on the heterosexual population like are currently imposed upon the homosexual population. When you see yourself as part of a group, rather than seeing them as a dehumanized "Other," you're apt to agree to nuanced stances like this.

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And your argument doesn't prove homophobia is inherent in religion, either. As a Christian, the last thing I'm afraid of is homosexuals. In fact, I'm called to love them.
Except the application of that "love" comes across as virulent homophobia to anyone who isn't heterosexual. That's ultimately where Elton John's motivation comes from. He sees all these Christians preaching "love" with their mouths and hatred with their actions.
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Old 11-17-2006, 10:11 AM   #93
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How is simply disagreeing with homosexuality hate? At the very least, even if my stance on it is wrong, I'm not hating you. That's a huge stretch.
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Old 11-17-2006, 11:10 AM   #94
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That's great for you, but you must realise what a huge and impossible step it is for some of us to believe that God handed down the contents of the Bible to us. Not to open a whole can of worms or anything, but virtually everything in the Bible was plucked from a pre-existing religious text. Like a language evolving from century to century and continent to continent, religion doesn't spring fully formed from the prophet's lips. Just one example - water into wine. Dionysus supposedly did it centuries before Jesus took his first step.
First of all, Dionysus is a god of mythology and Christ is a historical figure. Secondly, It's important to know when the references of Christ and Dionysus turning water in to wine were both originally written. The Gospel of John, whcih includes the reference to Christ's miracle, was written more than 1900 years ago, during the first century A.D. The earliest known source for the Dionysus story is from Achilles Tatius, in the romance novel, Leucippe and Cleitophon," which is commonly said to have been written during the second century A.D.

And what about the numerous prophecies made in the Old Testament of the Christ that Jesus fulfilled in the New Testament. And no, they're not just ones he could simply do by reading the OT texts. One was that his bones wouldn't be broken after he was crucified. That was a common practice to speed up death, especially before the Sabbath. Yet, this happened to him. Certainly, if the powers that be at the time didn't want him to be the Christ, they might've broken his bones anyway, but it didn't happen. Another prophecy is that his hands would be pierced. This was made centuries before crucifixion even existed as a form of capital punishment. It also wasn't anything close to what the Jewish people of the day were looking for in a savior. Stuff like this, and there's many, many such prophecies, also serve, to me and many others at least, as proof that something influenced the texts. God might be a good place to start.


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You know the official explanation for that? Satan retroactively rewrote the texts, duplicating Jesus's future miracles. Think how that looks to people not raised Christian. Pretty irrational. I'm sorry but that's just not going to cut it, especially when we're talking about beliefs that shape the culture we all share, and the laws that govern it.
It appears as if Satan was at work after the fact.

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My argument doesn't prove that homophobia is inherent in all religion, no. Just the religions that try to control people's behavior, generally, and their sexuality, specifically, which is about 90% of them. Or another way of looking at it - any religion with rules probably has rules about sex, and gay sex. If you want to hold up Unitarianism or Satanism or Raelianism as proof that not all religion cares about this stuff, fine. Stretching that far to make your point only proves mine.
Unitarianism, Satanism and Raelianism are all cults, therefore they should not be held up or taken seriously by anyone. They have no foundation for their beliefs.
As far as rules, I have no problems with them, sexual or whatever. Rules and laws exist for everyone's benefit. There's actually freedom found in rules because everything works as it should. The good thing is, when they're broken, we have forgiveness through Christ. The slate is wiped clean. The same can happen for anyone who accepts his sacrificial death for this to happen.

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An aside - homophobia has more to do with straight people than it does with gay people. Suppressing gay people is really an attempt to control women. Women and their wandering uteri are a huge problem for men, and keeping their sexuality under control is in men's interests. Men who don't support the status quo (that is, who don't want a subservient wife) are betraying their fellow men. The whole idea of rigid gender places a divide between male and female that justifies and enables misogyny. People who blur the divide of gender and male dominance of women threaten the whole system, and have to be eliminated.
What pro-homosexual Web site did you get this from? It's completely off base and irrational. If anything, you'd be surprised to find out that a real "man" according to biblical standards is far less "macho" than the image of that that our society may hold up.

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DON'T tell me you don't think your wife has to be subservient to you. I don't care about your opinion - I'm describing the pattern of thought that homophobia sprang from, at the same time as describing where marriage came from. You know as well as I do that women were for millennia considered property, marriage was conceived as a financial transaction, and women were only granted personhood in your grandmother's lifetime. The effects still linger to this day (count the women in Congress, look at the stats on the richest people in the country, or how much women earn on the dollar compared to men). The residue of these centuries of misogyny still taints our culture, no matter how much you love your wife.
You're right! The only thing is the poor treatment of women is in no way Biblical, so you can't blame that. Also, I don't think homophobia sprang from this. Seems like a stretch to me.

As far as my wife being subservient to me, well sort of. The Bible does say this is how it should be. However, when people cite this they often overlook the commandment for men in marriage — which is just as strong. It calls for us to give ourselves up for her, as Christ did for the church.

"Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body. “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband." Ephesians 5:22-33

The idea of marriage is one of true humility toward each other and God. If only I could be this type of husband to my wife.

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Finally, don't confuse homophobia with the fear of homosexuals. Homophobia isn't like arachnophobia. It's most often a subconscious depersonification of gay people, a double standard, and nothing more. Parsing words with the "love the sinner, hate the sin" rhetoric means nothing when your actions (and your vote) remove or withhold rights from your fellow humans.
I know what homophobia is, although I think it's somewhat a relative term. By disagreeing with homosexuality, that doesn't make me a homophobe. Using that term to describe people who simply disagree with it is nothing more than a form of bullying.
I do love the sinner, hate the sin. (I hope others would do the same with me.)That's why myself and many others disagree with homosexuality. We don't see it like you and others do. To us, it's a lifestyle that's unnatural and not according to God's plan for our lives. So, from our perspective, by taking a stand against it, we are looking to the best interest of homosexuals. I understand how homosexuals and others don't see it as that though. Instead of calling us people of hate (I know some, in fact, are people of hate), it might be more helpful to see where we're coming from. Even if we are wrong — and hey, if we are, that's fine. I'd love to be wrong, I just have no proof of that yet — you can't say it's always done in hate. That's absurd.
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Old 11-17-2006, 11:53 AM   #95
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Originally posted by Ormus


Care to elaborate? It's an interesting statement that I'd like to understand before I try to comment.
To me Elton's statement reflects some one who is broken. (And aren't we all to some degree?)
He doesn't seem understand or respect the fact that Christianity is about a lot more that just talking about gay people and their issues.
Christianity not only deals with the God thing, it also embraces the history of humanity with the good, the bad and the ugly, in one path.
Elton's on a journey (aren't we all?) and what is good for him now, or for me, or you, is not necessarily good altogether, for our future.
Maybe, but not neccesarily.
Sometimes what we hate is what we think we hate.
Misinformation is a destructive waste of time.
I'd rather learn something than argue, even if I don't agree.
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Old 11-17-2006, 12:16 PM   #96
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Originally posted by Ormus

Muhammad ended up being more "successful" in the Middle East and Africa, because it was tailored to their cultural customs, rather than being a foreign imposition.
.
Funny - I thought it had something to do with a sword and severed heads...
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Old 11-17-2006, 01:46 PM   #97
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Originally posted by coemgen
First of all, Dionysus is a god of mythology and Christ is a historical figure.


Tell that to a person living in ancient Greece. Anyway, this is more or less irrelevant. We often misquote and give improper credit to things said decades ago, let alone centuries.

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Originally posted by coemgen
As far as rules, I have no problems with them, sexual or whatever. Rules and laws exist for everyone's benefit. There's actually freedom found in rules because everything works as it should.


Of course you don't have a problem with these rules - they're not forbidding you from doing something your nature compels you to do. The freedom you find in the "order" these rules provide is the freedom from having to deal with gay people. Congratulations!

PS "Everything works as it should" is an awfully tendentious phrase. You might want to look at the source of that "should." Whom does your obedient behavior benefit? Hint: Not God!

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Originally posted by coemgen
What pro-homosexual Web site did you get this from? It's completely off base and irrational.


Actually, I got it from the #1 sociology professor in the entire country of Canada. Oops! I just outed myself. Yes, I confess, I studied sociology.

Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
You're right! The only thing is the poor treatment of women is in no way Biblical, so you can't blame that. Also, I don't think homophobia sprang from this. Seems like a stretch to me.


The poor treatment of women is not Biblical? What?

"When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening. … If a man lies with her and her monthly flow touches him, he will be unclean for seven days..." Leviticus 15:19-32

“…If however the charge is true and no proof of the girl’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death..." Deuteronomy 22:13-21

“…women should remain silent in churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission...” 1 Corinthians 14:34

“Wives submit to your husbands, as is fitting to the Lord.” Colossians 3:18

"Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's." Exodus 20:17

"And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do." Exodus 21:7

"If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbor's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you." Deuteronomy 22:23-24

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." 1 Timothy 2:11-12

And so on, and so on.

I also like the verses you quote - it's interesting that Jesus has things to say to husbands, but women were not even worth addressing. Not even human.

Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
I know what homophobia is, although I think it's somewhat a relative term. By disagreeing with homosexuality, that doesn't make me a homophobe.


Actually - sweeping aside political correctness and relativistic tolerance for a moment - it does. Homophobia is ignorance of and bigotry towards gays. You have displayed both. So I'm a bully for labelling you homophobic? What term would you prefer, as someone who doesn't understand the causes of homosexuality, and who doesn't understand what it's like to be gay, but who feels qualified to tell them what's in their best interest? What would you call someone who wants to create laws that form a double standard based on sexual identity, that deny some people the right to happiness?

Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
To us, it's a lifestyle that's unnatural and not according to God's plan for our lives. So, from our perspective, by taking a stand against it, we are looking to the best interest of homosexuals.


Thanks for the illustration. You have no flippin' clue what you're talking about, end of conversation.

Literally. This is the end of this conversation, as far as I'm concerned. You have nothing to offer except preconceptions, misconceptions, and misrepresentations.

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Originally posted by coemgen
(I know some [gays], in fact, are people of hate)


I would number myself among those. Yes, the world is black and white, and some people are filled with love, and some are filled with hate. Some people dwell in Christ and lead lives of purity, despite acting in ways that harm other people. But others of us let Satan into our hearts and become creatures of sensuality, depravity, and evil. In fact, I'm barely human at all.

Right?
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Old 11-17-2006, 01:54 PM   #98
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I don't think Paul was misogynistic at all. He only comes across that way when people fail to read the entire letter or they fail to understand the context and circumstances of the letter.

We are called to serve another, to submit to each other, and to honor one another above ourselves. We are to treat everyone this way.
Well that's not the part I was talking about, what about the veils, and not allowing women to teach, just context?
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Old 11-17-2006, 03:58 PM   #99
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Well that's not the part I was talking about, what about the veils, and not allowing women to teach, just context?
Yes, I believe so. Paul didn't want to shake up many of the customs that were already in place. He didn't want anyone getting distracted from the Message. It is apparent in his letters that the initial churches were very excited about their newfound freedom in Christ.

It is similar to asking someone walking into a "stodgy" church to wear pants and shoes. While a church that meets on the beach - shorts and barefeet are the norm.

Paul is simply asking people to respect the social customs. Allow Christ to change lives over time.
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Old 11-17-2006, 04:33 PM   #100
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Originally posted by Ormus


Because Christianity is the only religion that bothered to evangelize Europe, more or less. Muhammad ended up being more "successful" in the Middle East and Africa, because it was tailored to their cultural customs, rather than being a foreign imposition.

Rest assured, though, had you been born in Saudi Arabia, instead of America, you'd probably be a fervent Muslim like everyone else there. Something to think about.
Yeah. If I'd been born in Saudi Arabia, I'd be a Wahhabist Muslim and would be wearing a veil and would be confined to matters of the home. The history of early Islam is synonymous with the early history of the Arabs. That's why I had to dump a project to teach Arabic history in my historical re-enacment society, way too political. Early Islam was much more commerce-friendly than early Christianity was. I suspect this had to do with it catching on in the Middle East and northern Africa.
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Old 11-17-2006, 04:42 PM   #101
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Yes, I believe so. Paul didn't want to shake up many of the customs that were already in place. He didn't want anyone getting distracted from the Message. It is apparent in his letters that the initial churches were very excited about their newfound freedom in Christ.

It is similar to asking someone walking into a "stodgy" church to wear pants and shoes. While a church that meets on the beach - shorts and barefeet are the norm.

Paul is simply asking people to respect the social customs. Allow Christ to change lives over time.
See this contradicts most of your posts. You always talk about how you don't believe in relativism, yet you support it here.

How is this any different from the belief that Christ spoke to the people in social customs they would understand? i.e. man and a woman
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Old 11-17-2006, 05:47 PM   #102
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How is simply disagreeing with homosexuality hate? At the very least, even if my stance on it is wrong, I'm not hating you. That's a huge stretch.


we've been through this before -- it's impossible to "disagree" with homosexuality. that's a logically absurd statement. it's like disagreeing with red hair or left-handedness. homosexuality is every bit as natural as heterosexuality.
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Old 11-17-2006, 05:53 PM   #103
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upon reading the thread ... you're doing a great job Ormus
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Old 11-17-2006, 05:55 PM   #104
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we've been through this before -- it's impossible to "disagree" with homosexuality. that's a logically absurd statement. it's like disagreeing with red hair or left-handedness. homosexuality is every bit as natural as heterosexuality.
Where's the concrete evidence of this. That's all I'm asking for!
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Old 11-17-2006, 05:58 PM   #105
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Bon soir.

(Melon)


egads!

i should have known ...
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