Elton john wants.... - Page 6 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 11-15-2006, 08:06 AM   #76
War Child
 
Ormus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Frontios
Posts: 758
Local Time: 10:09 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500
Don't many lesbian feminists deny that their homosexuality is rooted in biology but instead view their sexuality as a political and empowering choice? A choice, as they see it, not to be victimized under traditional male patriarchy and by the societal objectification of women.

In fact, don't many lesbians resent the search for a "gay gene" or is that soooo 1990's?
One study that's been noted is that women are more likely to be bisexual than men, who are typically either exclusively heterosexual or homosexual. So it's very possible that some militant feminists are doing just that. However, every lesbian I know doesn't have this above attitude. It still does not negate the concept of sexuality being natural.

I think that most of us here can agree that you can't just fake feelings for someone (unless you're part of the ex-gay crew). You either have them or you don't. Bisexuals are just fortunate enough to have more options than the rest of us.
__________________

__________________
Ormus is offline  
Old 11-15-2006, 08:17 AM   #77
War Child
 
Ormus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Frontios
Posts: 758
Local Time: 10:09 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean
A few months back, I read an article in a women's magazine (Redbook, maybe or Marie Claire) about how more and more women are "experimenting" with same-sex relationships, some women saying that other women are just more in tune to what they need than men are etc. How does this fit in to the debate?

To me it would seem to suggest that the issue is more complex than some of us--on either side of the debate--might like to admitt.
See what I just wrote. Now you might get the impression that there are no studies into sexuality. Yes, there are. The Kinsey Institute is one of the oldest institutes having studied this issue:

http://www.indiana.edu/~kinsey/

But there's a huge, huge disparity in the types of groups doing the studying. Many conservative Christian groups "studying" this issue are doing it with a clear anti-gay bias, and their religion precludes them from ever coming to a pro-gay conclusion. This type of "science" falls under the same faulty logic as "intelligent design." Coming up with a predetermined conclusion, and then searching for evidence to back it up is the same logical fallacy that St. Thomas Aquinas and other medieval theologians engaged in.

The idea of homosexuality being a mental illness was an avenue discovered from the 19th century to the 1970s. It was ultimately disproven by the scientific community in the early 1970s, and they haven't regretted their conclusions. There's a big difference between studies of sexuality done by the Kinsey Institute and ones done by Focus on the Family. You can basically know the conclusion that FOTF will come up with ahead of time. It's just a matter of how offensive and stereotypical FOTF chooses to be at any given moment.
__________________

__________________
Ormus is offline  
Old 11-15-2006, 09:04 AM   #78
War Child
 
Ormus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Frontios
Posts: 758
Local Time: 10:09 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
Melon? Wow. Why the name change? Are you in a rock band now?

I've always appreciated your perspective. I hope you know that. I think you've got a great mind.

If you can put differences aside, I'm always open to more discussion. I'm at www.myspace.com/coemgen17 or coemgen17@hotmail.com. And no, I'm not going to try to convert or change you. Like I said, it'd be cool to discuss other things, especially knowing you're melon.

later,

Kevin
I had a hunch that knowing who the messenger was would affect how you'd see my message.

No, I don't hate you. And I've enjoyed your perspective on many topics here. I just really disagree with your perspective here, plain and simple.

"melon" happens to be on 9999 posts right now, and I want to write something fairly substantial for post 10000. I used to write fairly substantial things here, but, as time has marched on, I've become a lot busier and now I'm pretty much just replying to existing topics now. I figured I'd write something for old time's sake.

Take care...

Melon
__________________
Ormus is offline  
Old 11-15-2006, 11:49 AM   #79
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
coemgen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
Posts: 3,962
Local Time: 09:09 AM
I noticed melon was at 9,999. I'm looking forward to your big 10,000th post.

God bless,

coemgen

PS -- what are the three pics at the bottom of your posts from?
__________________
coemgen is offline  
Old 11-16-2006, 01:12 AM   #80
Babyface
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 16
Local Time: 02:09 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean
If religion inherently created anti-gay prejudice there would be something inherent in religiosity that makes it antagonistic to homosexuality. No one has yet been able to demonstrate what aspect of religiosity is inherently antagonistic to homosexuality.
How about this: Religion, as a formalised, structured system of beliefs, is designed to control people, similar to the way laws are designed to control people. The difference being, laws are designed to preserve order, but the beliefs religion espouses and the behaviors it encourages are not designed to preserve the peace, but to preserve the power of the people who are doing the talking.

One of the simplest ways to control people is to divide them, and turn them against each other. Create a hegemony, and brand anyone who steps outside it a heretic or an infidel. Sex - not just gay sex, but premarital sex, extramarital sex, cohabitation, sodomy (this means oral and anal sex between heteros, too), promiscuity, sex with birth control, abortion, masturbation, and even - unbelievably - being a victim of rape and not fighting back - these are all forms of sex that religion has labelled sinful, in an attempt to control people's behavior. Hell is the stick, and Heaven is the carrot. The transparency of this system is patently obvious to anyone without a vested interest in preserving it.

In short - religion is a system of beliefs not handed down from God (sorry to disappoint you) but created by men, to control others. Controlling sex is just one tool in the arsenal.

There. I've proven how homophobia is inherent in religion. Do I get a prize?
__________________
The Tonic is offline  
Old 11-16-2006, 01:28 AM   #81
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 12:09 AM
Burn the witch!
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 11-16-2006, 09:56 AM   #82
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
coemgen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
Posts: 3,962
Local Time: 09:09 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by The Tonic


How about this: Religion, as a formalised, structured system of beliefs, is designed to control people, similar to the way laws are designed to control people. The difference being, laws are designed to preserve order, but the beliefs religion espouses and the behaviors it encourages are not designed to preserve the peace, but to preserve the power of the people who are doing the talking.

One of the simplest ways to control people is to divide them, and turn them against each other. Create a hegemony, and brand anyone who steps outside it a heretic or an infidel. Sex - not just gay sex, but premarital sex, extramarital sex, cohabitation, sodomy (this means oral and anal sex between heteros, too), promiscuity, sex with birth control, abortion, masturbation, and even - unbelievably - being a victim of rape and not fighting back - these are all forms of sex that religion has labelled sinful, in an attempt to control people's behavior. Hell is the stick, and Heaven is the carrot. The transparency of this system is patently obvious to anyone without a vested interest in preserving it.

In short - religion is a system of beliefs not handed down from God (sorry to disappoint you) but created by men, to control others. Controlling sex is just one tool in the arsenal.

There. I've proven how homophobia is inherent in religion. Do I get a prize?
Actually, a lot of this is handed down by God. It's in the Bible. Yes, it was written by men, but inspired by God. And it's not meant to control people, but set them free. When kids play a game of soccer, they have boundaries to stay in and rules to follow. If there were no rules, it'd be an all out fight. Kids would get hurt. It'd get nasty. However, when the rules are followed, the game is more enjoyable. The kids have fun and it's seen as fair.
To the things above, (aside from the not fighting back against rape -- in no way is that a sin), there's a consequence, too.
I'm a Christian, yet I had premarital sex. We got pregnant and had to go into a marriage (we were planning on getting married anyway) with a child right off the bat, unprepared. It took its toll on our marriage. Abortion: my wife had an abortion before she met me. She still deals with the guilt and pain years later -- and no, it's not brought on through our "religion". Along with loving friends and family, her faith is the only thing that gives her peace. She knows she's forgiven. It's still tough though.

Also, sex with birth control and masturbation are sins if you're from the Catholic church, but not many other denominations.

Many denominations, including mine, don't have "religion." Our church doesn't have set beliefs, except accepting the Bible as God's word and developing a relationship with Christ. It's a relationship with God, not an empty set of beliefs. No other person is in control of me either.

And your argument doesn't prove homophobia is inherent in religion, either. As a Christian, the last thing I'm afraid of is homosexuals. In fact, I'm called to love them.
__________________
coemgen is offline  
Old 11-16-2006, 11:19 AM   #83
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 07:09 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen


Actually, a lot of this is handed down by God. It's in the Bible. Yes, it was written by men, but inspired by God. And it's not meant to control people, but set them free. When kids play a game of soccer, they have boundaries to stay in and rules to follow. If there were no rules, it'd be an all out fight. Kids would get hurt. It'd get nasty. However, when the rules are followed, the game is more enjoyable. The kids have fun and it's seen as fair.
To the things above, (aside from the not fighting back against rape -- in no way is that a sin), there's a consequence, too.
I'm a Christian, yet I had premarital sex. We got pregnant and had to go into a marriage (we were planning on getting married anyway) with a child right off the bat, unprepared. It took its toll on our marriage. Abortion: my wife had an abortion before she met me. She still deals with the guilt and pain years later -- and no, it's not brought on through our "religion". Along with loving friends and family, her faith is the only thing that gives her peace. She knows she's forgiven. It's still tough though.

Also, sex with birth control and masturbation are sins if you're from the Catholic church, but not many other denominations.

Many denominations, including mine, don't have "religion." Our church doesn't have set beliefs, except accepting the Bible as God's word and developing a relationship with Christ. It's a relationship with God, not an empty set of beliefs. No other person is in control of me either.

And your argument doesn't prove homophobia is inherent in religion, either. As a Christian, the last thing I'm afraid of is homosexuals. In fact, I'm called to love them.
Well put.
__________________
AEON is offline  
Old 11-16-2006, 12:03 PM   #84
Acrobat
 
BorderGirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Under A Blood Red Texas Sky
Posts: 418
Local Time: 09:09 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean

Finally, religious faith, can be helpful in the struggle for equal rights just as it was in the fight to end slavery and in the civil rights movement by appealing to values that while not necessarily universal to all religions, nor limited to just the religious—values such as compassion, mercy, justice, and the intrinsic value and worth of each person—are certainly embraced by many of the world’s religions. In the struggle for equal rights for blacks Martin Luther King didn’t point to the religion of white southerners and say—“Here’s your problem. If you’d just abandon your religion racism would end. Instead he said, “Here’s your problem. Our faith teaches this—all created equal in the sight of God—and you’re not living up to it.”

Elton John’s comments, like a lot of what gets passed around as truth in our culture, sounds true on the face of it, but really lacks any logical, rational underpinnings.
Thanks for your post emphasizing the difference between faith/humans on the faith road.
We are called to embrace the journey.
I find Elton self serving, gay or not.
__________________
BorderGirl is offline  
Old 11-16-2006, 06:19 PM   #85
Babyface
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 16
Local Time: 02:09 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
Actually, a lot of this is handed down by God. It's in the Bible. Yes, it was written by men, but inspired by God.

...

And your argument doesn't prove homophobia is inherent in religion, either. As a Christian, the last thing I'm afraid of is homosexuals. In fact, I'm called to love them.
That's great for you, but you must realise what a huge and impossible step it is for some of us to believe that God handed down the contents of the Bible to us. Not to open a whole can of worms or anything, but virtually everything in the Bible was plucked from a pre-existing religious text. Like a language evolving from century to century and continent to continent, religion doesn't spring fully formed from the prophet's lips. Just one example - water into wine. Dionysus supposedly did it centuries before Jesus took his first step.

You know the official explanation for that? Satan retroactively rewrote the texts, duplicating Jesus's future miracles. Think how that looks to people not raised Christian. Pretty irrational. I'm sorry but that's just not going to cut it, especially when we're talking about beliefs that shape the culture we all share, and the laws that govern it.

My argument doesn't prove that homophobia is inherent in all religion, no. Just the religions that try to control people's behavior, generally, and their sexuality, specifically, which is about 90% of them. Or another way of looking at it - any religion with rules probably has rules about sex, and gay sex. If you want to hold up Unitarianism or Satanism or Raelianism as proof that not all religion cares about this stuff, fine. Stretching that far to make your point only proves mine.

An aside - homophobia has more to do with straight people than it does with gay people. Suppressing gay people is really an attempt to control women. Women and their wandering uteri are a huge problem for men, and keeping their sexuality under control is in men's interests. Men who don't support the status quo (that is, who don't want a subservient wife) are betraying their fellow men. The whole idea of rigid gender places a divide between male and female that justifies and enables misogyny. People who blur the divide of gender and male dominance of women threaten the whole system, and have to be eliminated.

DON'T tell me you don't think your wife has to be subservient to you. I don't care about your opinion - I'm describing the pattern of thought that homophobia sprang from, at the same time as describing where marriage came from. You know as well as I do that women were for millennia considered property, marriage was conceived as a financial transaction, and women were only granted personhood in your grandmother's lifetime. The effects still linger to this day (count the women in Congress, look at the stats on the richest people in the country, or how much women earn on the dollar compared to men). The residue of these centuries of misogyny still taints our culture, no matter how much you love your wife.

Similarly, keeping women under men's thumb led to the suppression of homosexuality. This was sometimes codified into law, but the way these beliefs were inexorably ingrained into our culture was religion.

Finally, don't confuse homophobia with the fear of homosexuals. Homophobia isn't like arachnophobia. It's most often a subconscious depersonification of gay people, a double standard, and nothing more. Parsing words with the "love the sinner, hate the sin" rhetoric means nothing when your actions (and your vote) remove or withhold rights from your fellow humans.
__________________
The Tonic is offline  
Old 11-16-2006, 10:11 PM   #86
War Child
 
Ormus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Frontios
Posts: 758
Local Time: 10:09 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by BorderGirl
We are called to embrace the journey.
I find Elton self serving, gay or not.
Care to elaborate? It's an interesting statement that I'd like to understand before I try to comment.
__________________
Ormus is offline  
Old 11-17-2006, 02:45 AM   #87
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 07:09 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by The Tonic


That's great for you, but you must realise what a huge and impossible step it is for some of us to believe that God handed down the contents of the Bible to us. Not to open a whole can of worms or anything, but virtually everything in the Bible was plucked from a pre-existing religious text. Like a language evolving from century to century and continent to continent, religion doesn't spring fully formed from the prophet's lips. Just one example - water into wine. Dionysus supposedly did it centuries before Jesus took his first step.

You know the official explanation for that? Satan retroactively rewrote the texts, duplicating Jesus's future miracles. Think how that looks to people not raised Christian. Pretty irrational. I'm sorry but that's just not going to cut it, especially when we're talking about beliefs that shape the culture we all share, and the laws that govern it.

My argument doesn't prove that homophobia is inherent in all religion, no. Just the religions that try to control people's behavior, generally, and their sexuality, specifically, which is about 90% of them. Or another way of looking at it - any religion with rules probably has rules about sex, and gay sex. If you want to hold up Unitarianism or Satanism or Raelianism as proof that not all religion cares about this stuff, fine. Stretching that far to make your point only proves mine.

An aside - homophobia has more to do with straight people than it does with gay people. Suppressing gay people is really an attempt to control women. Women and their wandering uteri are a huge problem for men, and keeping their sexuality under control is in men's interests. Men who don't support the status quo (that is, who don't want a subservient wife) are betraying their fellow men. The whole idea of rigid gender places a divide between male and female that justifies and enables misogyny. People who blur the divide of gender and male dominance of women threaten the whole system, and have to be eliminated.

DON'T tell me you don't think your wife has to be subservient to you. I don't care about your opinion - I'm describing the pattern of thought that homophobia sprang from, at the same time as describing where marriage came from. You know as well as I do that women were for millennia considered property, marriage was conceived as a financial transaction, and women were only granted personhood in your grandmother's lifetime. The effects still linger to this day (count the women in Congress, look at the stats on the richest people in the country, or how much women earn on the dollar compared to men). The residue of these centuries of misogyny still taints our culture, no matter how much you love your wife.

Similarly, keeping women under men's thumb led to the suppression of homosexuality. This was sometimes codified into law, but the way these beliefs were inexorably ingrained into our culture was religion.

Finally, don't confuse homophobia with the fear of homosexuals. Homophobia isn't like arachnophobia. It's most often a subconscious depersonification of gay people, a double standard, and nothing more. Parsing words with the "love the sinner, hate the sin" rhetoric means nothing when your actions (and your vote) remove or withhold rights from your fellow humans.
I suppose I can see how you can think like this. But I think many people confuse "Christendom" with "Christianity." Christendom has a ton of a historical baggage. But I think it would be difficult to prove that Christ taught such an attitude toward women.

Regarding the miracles: the simple fact that other deities were believed to perform miracles doesn't negate the uniqueness of Christ. Make two columns and place any “god” in one column and Jesus in the other and then list all of their attributes. You will soon see that while there are some similarities – there are VAST differences.

Also, other men were performing “miracles” before and after Jesus – but there must be “something” different about Jesus that separated Him from the others. I encourage you to investigate that avenue – why Jesus? Why not any other? Why anyone?
__________________
AEON is offline  
Old 11-17-2006, 03:33 AM   #88
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,645
Local Time: 08:09 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


But I think it would be difficult to prove that Christ taught such an attitude toward women.

I think this is the point where you lose many people in here, because you aren't consistent. Of course Christ never taught such things, but Paul, Leviticus, etc did.

And this is a subject you have talked AROUND ever since you've been in here. But Paul and the OT were very misogynists. Why is it Paul was still preaching veils in the NT?

You aren't consistent in your followings, you quote Paul on one page but ignore his teachings in another...
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 11-17-2006, 08:00 AM   #89
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 07:09 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


I think this is the point where you lose many people in here, because you aren't consistent. Of course Christ never taught such things, but Paul, Leviticus, etc did.

And this is a subject you have talked AROUND ever since you've been in here. But Paul and the OT were very misogynists. Why is it Paul was still preaching veils in the NT?

You aren't consistent in your followings, you quote Paul on one page but ignore his teachings in another...
I don't think Paul was misogynistic at all. He only comes across that way when people fail to read the entire letter or they fail to understand the context and circumstances of the letter.

We are called to serve another, to submit to each other, and to honor one another above ourselves. We are to treat everyone this way.
__________________
AEON is offline  
Old 11-17-2006, 08:04 AM   #90
War Child
 
Ormus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Frontios
Posts: 758
Local Time: 10:09 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by AEON
I encourage you to investigate that avenue – why Jesus? Why not any other? Why anyone?
Because Christianity is the only religion that bothered to evangelize Europe, more or less. Muhammad ended up being more "successful" in the Middle East and Africa, because it was tailored to their cultural customs, rather than being a foreign imposition.

Rest assured, though, had you been born in Saudi Arabia, instead of America, you'd probably be a fervent Muslim like everyone else there. Something to think about.
__________________

__________________
Ormus is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com