Elton john wants.... - Page 5 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 11-15-2006, 12:13 AM   #61
War Child
 
Ormus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Frontios
Posts: 758
Local Time: 06:36 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
Let me know what you find out.
I shall publish it in every scientific journal that no one will read.

Quote:
When in doubt, use sarcasm.
What sarcasm?

Quote:
You want so badly to label me as a hater. Is that what this disccusion has boiled down to? You shouldn't let emotions get into a good debate. Again, as I've said repeatedly, I'm just seeking to understand it before I support one way or the other. I think that's the case for most people. There's no hatred here or homophobia or whatever you want to throw at me -- just understanding. And yes, we do vote on this matter. It's called the amendment to ban gay marriage. It's been passed in nearly every state that's put it on the ballot. Some people might've voted it down out of hatred or fear. Not me. I need to understand it before I vote for it. Right now, there's not a lot out there for me to form a conclusive opinon. That's all I'm seeking. If it's such a big issue, why isn't there a healthy debate going on on TV, in print and elsewhere? Gay people saying "I'm born this way," isn't good enough for me, personally. (Again, to stress that, it's just me. One person.) Of course, the sad thing is that there may not be healthy dialogue or discussion or an open study on it because it's all political. And yes, I'm sincere when I say it's sad.
It sounds like you've made your mind up. That's how you've written it, at least. The kind of proof burden you're expecting is far beyond the proof needed to sentence a criminal suspect to death. So with such purposely unrealistic expectations, how is anyone supposed to reach them?

Your mind is essentially made up.

If I told you you were "abnormal" and that, in absence of "conclusive scientific studies" that you were not allowed to get married, what would you say? Would you want to wait the 50 years it might take to adequately decipher the human genome? By that time, you'll be old and most of your life will be gone. But hey...we don't want to be hasty here.

Even then, we have plenty of studies regarding sexuality. Those arguments about sexual abuse and distant fathers are several decades old, and every credible scientist abandoned those positions 35 years ago. They're disproven and unrelated, just, as I said before, you're apt to find numerous heterosexuals who've experienced sexual abuse or distant fathers in a packed arena setting.

But that isn't enough for you. No, we need "more studies."

Like I said, your mind is made up. Even if you don't wish to admit it.

What's sad about all of this is that you see a debate, and I see people who are genuinely hurt by your positions. But excuse me for being an uppity minority.

And, by the way, the "amendment to ban gay marriage" (hey...I thought it was about "defending marriage"?) failed in Arizona. I know, I know. That isn't worthy of front page news.
__________________

__________________
Ormus is offline  
Old 11-15-2006, 12:18 AM   #62
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
coemgen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
Posts: 3,962
Local Time: 05:36 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Ormus

Ah you misread me. I just love spending $4000 trying to immigrate to Canada, so I can be with the love of my life. You know, since the Bible says that same-sex immigration is a form of marriage rite.

Oh sorry...there hasn't been a conclusive study telling me that I can love yet. I guess I'll have to wait to see what the study says before I know what I actually feel.
Listen, I can't imagine what it's like being gay. My heart sincerely goes out to those who are (including you, if that's the case). I mean that with all of my heart. However, I'm not gay, so I try to understand it as best as I can. That's what all of us here are trying to do on these big issues. In no way do I intend to judge someone who's gay. I know there's others here who are gay whom I've discussed this stuff with, and I'd like to think they've found my side respectful at least, despite the differences in opinon.

As a Christian, my faith and the example of Christ calls me to love gay people as much as the next person. If we're going to bring up the idea of sin, which I haven't until now, I would have to confess I'm with the worst of them. That's why I haven't brought up faith. I don't even consider homosexuality the biggest issue spiritually. It will always be whether someone has entered a relationship with Christ or not.

If I'm wrong for seeking to understand homosexuality, especially if I happen to be starting from a different perspective than you, then that's your call. I've never equated seeking to understand with hatred though.
__________________

__________________
coemgen is offline  
Old 11-15-2006, 12:26 AM   #63
War Child
 
Ormus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Frontios
Posts: 758
Local Time: 06:36 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
If I'm wrong for seeking to understand homosexuality, especially if I happen to be starting from a different perspective than you, then that's your call. I've never equated seeking to understand with hatred though.
I cannot expect everyone to understand what it is like to be gay. But I can never really understand what it is like to be black either. It doesn't mean that I support segregation until science conclusively tells me what it is like to be black.

At the very least, remember that you're dealing with real people here, not politics. Not a Bible verse. Not a psychiatric condition. By ignoring them, they do not go away. If you dehumanize your subject, you're going to end up saying a whole load of offensive and condescending things, even with the best and most innocent of intentions.

The best advice I can give you is to put yourself in the shoes of "the Other." Empathy is sorely lacking in today's world.
__________________
Ormus is offline  
Old 11-15-2006, 12:33 AM   #64
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
coemgen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
Posts: 3,962
Local Time: 05:36 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Ormus

It sounds like you've made your mind up. That's how you've written it, at least.
Then you need to go back and read my posts again. Especially, the first sentence of the first post where I said I'm not ready to support gay marriage -- yet. I've posted that sentenece three times now.


Quote:

If I told you you were "abnormal" and that, in absence of "conclusive scientific studies" that you were not allowed to get married, what would you say? Would you want to wait the 50 years it might take to adequately decipher the human genome? By that time, you'll be old and most of your life will be gone. But hey...we don't want to be hasty here.
What if I got married and studies showed the opposite? What if there was a chance I could exeprience relationships the way I was intended to expereince them? I'd have to go with that route. That's just me though.

Quote:

Even then, we have plenty of studies regarding sexuality. Those arguments about sexual abuse and distant fathers are several decades old, and every credible scientist abandoned those positions 35 years ago. They're disproven and unrelated, just, as I said before, you're apt to find numerous heterosexuals who've experienced sexual abuse or distant fathers in a packed arena setting.
I've also said a couple times that I know sexual abuse and distant fathers doesn't equate to everyone becoming homosexual. I just find it funny that that happens to come up in the stories I've heard. Of course, you probably think those personal stories weren't credible because they don't support your side.

Quote:

What's sad about all of this is that you see a debate, and I see people who are genuinely hurt by your positions. But excuse me for being an uppity minority.
Again, I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings. I haven't attacked you personally though, I just disagree with you.


Quote:
And, by the way, the "amendment to ban gay marriage" (hey...I thought it was about "defending marriage"?) failed in Arizona. I know, I know. That isn't worthy of front page news.
I'm fully aware of that, but I don't live in Arizona.
__________________
coemgen is offline  
Old 11-15-2006, 12:42 AM   #65
War Child
 
Ormus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Frontios
Posts: 758
Local Time: 06:36 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
What if I got married and studies showed the opposite? What if there was a chance I could exeprience relationships the way I was intended to expereince them? I'd have to go with that route. That's just me though.
Yes, that's just you. And you wouldn't feel this way if those "studies" didn't come until you were alone and 95 years old...and then told you that your "abnormality" was actually genetic all along.

Even then, if someone came to me and would give me a magical cure to make me lust after women, I still wouldn't take it. I would lose out on the love I currently feel for my partner, which is as deep and selfless as any opposite-sex mating ritual.

You deal with the life you have, not the life you wish you had. Well, that's what I get for taking some advice from Rummy.

Quote:
I've also said a couple times that I know sexual abuse and distant fathers doesn't equate to everyone becoming homosexual. I just find it funny that that happens to come up in the stories I've heard. Of course, you probably think those personal stories weren't credible because they don't support your side.
And, as I've demonstrated many times, the logic of those stories have no larger correlation if they can be demonstrated in the larger heterosexual population, as well. You might as well say that red hair makes you gay.
__________________
Ormus is offline  
Old 11-15-2006, 12:47 AM   #66
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
coemgen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
Posts: 3,962
Local Time: 05:36 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Ormus
[B]
I cannot expect everyone to understand what it is like to be gay. But I can never really understand what it is like to be black either. It doesn't mean that I support segregation until science conclusively tells me what it is like to be black.
]
Again, I personally don't equate a lifestyle to a race.


Quote:

At the very least, remember that you're dealing with real people here, not politics. Not a Bible verse. Not a psychiatric condition. By ignoring them, they do not go away. If you dehumanize your subject, you're going to end up saying a whole load of offensive and condescending things, even with the best and most innocent of intentions.
I understand it's real people. That's why I've expressed that I mean not to judge. In fact, I'm called to love gay people. I know it's not easy for gays and I try to empathize with you. Just because I have a differnet opinion though, doesn't mean I'm against you as a person. It's just where I'm coming from. You have to admit this isn't an easy topic to discuss, especially in this format.


Quote:

The best advice I can give you is to put yourself in the shoes of "the Other." Empathy is sorely lacking in today's world.
I agree with you, and I can admit I'm in need of more.

Listen, Ormus. This is good stuff. Being able to talk like this. I appreciate your perspective and everything. I'm sorry if I appeared cold. That wasn't my intention. Had I known more about you to begin with, I might've approached it differently. Unfortuantely, this format isn't the greatest for a more relaxed talk. It's easy to get caught up in the debate or discussion on one topic. I'm sure your the kind of person I could go have a drink with and have a cool discussion on any number of things. I'm sure we both agree that there's more to us than our opinions on a matter, and our sexuality.

On that note, I hope you have a good night. You're in my prayers. I mean that.

I'm going to get some work done now.

Good night.

coemgen
__________________
coemgen is offline  
Old 11-15-2006, 12:48 AM   #67
War Child
 
Ormus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Frontios
Posts: 758
Local Time: 06:36 AM
Bon soir.

(Melon)
__________________
Ormus is offline  
Old 11-15-2006, 01:00 AM   #68
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
coemgen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
Posts: 3,962
Local Time: 05:36 AM
Melon? Wow. Why the name change? Are you in a rock band now?

I've always appreciated your perspective. I hope you know that. I think you've got a great mind.

If you can put differences aside, I'm always open to more discussion. I'm at www.myspace.com/coemgen17 or coemgen17@hotmail.com. And no, I'm not going to try to convert or change you. Like I said, it'd be cool to discuss other things, especially knowing you're melon.

later,

Kevin
__________________
coemgen is offline  
Old 11-15-2006, 01:12 AM   #69
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The American Resistance
Posts: 4,754
Local Time: 04:36 AM
Don't many lesbian feminists deny that their homosexuality is rooted in biology but instead view their sexuality as a political and empowering choice? A choice, as they see it, not to be victimized under traditional male patriarchy and by the societal objectification of women.

In fact, don't many lesbians resent the search for a "gay gene" or is that soooo 1990's?
__________________
INDY500 is offline  
Old 11-15-2006, 01:20 AM   #70
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,684
Local Time: 04:36 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500
Don't many lesbian feminists deny that their homosexuality is rooted in biology but instead view their sexuality as a political and empowering choice? A choice, as they see it, not to be victimized under traditional male patriarchy and by the societal objectification of women.

In fact, don't many lesbians resent the search for a "gay gene" or is that soooo 1990's?
Extreme extreme feminists, homosexual or hetero, the ones that usually will make the headlines or stereotyped in movies may think this way but it's a minority stance.
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 11-15-2006, 02:00 AM   #71
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The American Resistance
Posts: 4,754
Local Time: 04:36 AM
Quote:
Serious problems arise when scientific inquiry is obstructed, as in the inflated myth of the "gay gene", by an excessive concern for gay sensitivities. The self-policing by the indulgent major media on these matters has come perilously close to censorship. True gay intellectuals should encourage open discussion of the genesis of homosexuality, a complex subject that has been in limbo, a political blackout, for 20 years. We must demand equality before the law, but that does not excuse us from the philosophic obligation of self-knowledge. Heterosexuality and homosexuality need to be objectively studied by psychologists and historians as interrelated dynamic systems that change from culture to culture.

--By Camille Paglia 2002
__________________
INDY500 is offline  
Old 11-15-2006, 06:44 AM   #72
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 05:36 AM
If religion inherently created anti-gay prejudice there would be something inherent in religiosity that makes it antagonistic to homosexuality. No one has yet been able to demonstrate what aspect of religiosity is inherently antagonistic to homosexuality. We’d be looking for something like “the nature of spirituality is inherently heterosexual, or the nature of God or gods is whole only by combining male and female characteristics, homosexuality is a denial of that” or something to that effect. And this would have to be universally accepted as a “baseline” for all organized religions (which in itself is absurd, as there’s hardly a single belief that all organized religions share in common—not to mention the “unorganized” ones, animism and such).

What is far more likely is that religion is a convenient cloak for basic human prejudice. Irvine has made the argument in the past, and I’ve come to agree with him, that the danger in religion is that sense of having access to the Absolute, in being able to take the Absolute Authority of God and apply that to your personal prejudices thus making them unassailable and impervious to reason. And when one’s prejudice is particularly illogical, I’ll grant you that religion with i’s Absolute Final Word can be very useful. But that is not the same as religion giving rise to the hatred itself. One need only look at the atheistic regimes around the world such as China, where religion is by and large banned, and yet homosexuality is still frowned upon to see that prejudice does not need religion’s help. Even here on FYM we’ve had a staunch atheist arguing against gay marriage, and on this very thread, we’ve had folks making the argument that it’s just “unnatural.” That’s code for “it’s really, really weird and gross and I don’t get it.” One does not need a religion to make a person feel that way.

The bottom line is that homosexuals are in the minority in the earth’s population, and human history shows that the majority has always viewed any kind of minority with a mixture of fear, hatred, ignorance, and disgust. Minorities of any stripe have never fared well in this world. Period.

Secular countries such as those in Western Europe may be more tolerant of homosexuality than theocratic ones like Iran, but this has less to do with the “lack of religion” per se and more to do with a general attitude of tolerance found in open, democratic societies. Strongly authoritarian atheistic countries—which by their very nature are NOT very tolerant or open—are easily as hostile to homosexuality as more religious ones.

Finally, religious faith, can be helpful in the struggle for equal rights just as it was in the fight to end slavery and in the civil rights movement by appealing to values that while not necessarily universal to all religions, nor limited to just the religious—values such as compassion, mercy, justice, and the intrinsic value and worth of each person—are certainly embraced by many of the world’s religions. In the struggle for equal rights for blacks Martin Luther King didn’t point to the religion of white southerners and say—“Here’s your problem. If you’d just abandon your religion racism would end. Instead he said, “Here’s your problem. Our faith teaches this—all created equal in the sight of God—and you’re not living up to it.”

Elton John’s comments, like a lot of what gets passed around as truth in our culture, sounds true on the face of it, but really lacks any logical, rational underpinnings.
__________________
maycocksean is offline  
Old 11-15-2006, 06:52 AM   #73
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 05:36 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500
Don't many lesbian feminists deny that their homosexuality is rooted in biology but instead view their sexuality as a political and empowering choice? A choice, as they see it, not to be victimized under traditional male patriarchy and by the societal objectification of women.

I'd actually like to hear more discussion on this topic. I know this whole topic is sensitive for many posters but I'd like to hear more perspectives, if people are willing. I notice too that most of the posters who are gay that have addressed this issue are men. Would lesbians have a different perspective?

Based on the people I know, I've come to the conclusion that homosexuals are born that way. But I have wondered about people, particularly women, who appear to be "choosing" their orientation. A few months back, I read an article in a women's magazine (Redbook, maybe or Marie Claire) about how more and more women are "experimenting" with same-sex relationships, some women saying that other women are just more in tune to what they need than men are etc. How does this fit in to the debate?

To me it would seem to suggest that the issue is more complex than some of us--on either side of the debate--might like to admitt.
__________________
maycocksean is offline  
Old 11-15-2006, 07:01 AM   #74
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
BonosSaint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,566
Local Time: 06:36 AM
Maycocksean, loved your post above the last one. Too long for me to quote, but every word rang true for me.
__________________
BonosSaint is offline  
Old 11-15-2006, 07:04 AM   #75
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 05:36 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonosSaint
Maycocksean, loved your post above the last one. Too long for me to quote, but every word rang true for me.
Thanks. It was one of the few posts that I actually typed out and revised a bit seperately before posting it in here.
__________________

__________________
maycocksean is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:36 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com