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Old 11-14-2006, 03:16 AM   #46
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Elton John has a valid point.
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Old 11-14-2006, 08:15 AM   #47
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Originally posted by INDY500
Isn't it likely that homosexuality is a combination of nature and nurture as well?
There's no underlying and unifying correlation. Gay people exist in a wide variety of cultures, a wide variety of parenting, and exist regardless of how approving or disapproving their environment is. And, indeed, there's certainly some repugnantly anti-gay environments out there.

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"Skin color is not race, race is a much more complicated concept that involves culture, religion and where your parents are from. It's an important part of society, but it's not about pigment alone."
Well, this starts sounding like an existential discussion than actual science. And that's fine. We talk about Judaism as if it is a race, and we only say this because of its unifying culture and religion, and some people might be apt to make a derisive comment against Condi Rice or Taye Diggs because they don't "act black," despite clearly having all the physical traits.

But again. This is philosophy here, which is generally irrelevant to our topic here. At its most basic, race is genetic for the sheer fact that each child is automatically granted a pigment color that genetically represents that of their parents. It's thought that races didn't exist 80,000 years ago, which is the time period of the second African migration that we all descend from, but that evolutionary pressures selected these races, due to its crucial importance regarding UV and Vitamin D. That is, black people would've died of Vitamin D deficiencies in Europe's cold, relatively sunless climate, whereas white people would've died of skin cancer and possibly a Vitamin D overdose in Africa.
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Old 11-14-2006, 08:21 AM   #48
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Human sexuality is a complex issue, it is and deserves to be an active area of investigation. There is social conditioning involved and perhaps that can be viewed as choice, did they ancient Greeks have exceptionally high proportions of gay genetic variation during the days of pedestary or was there a social situation that encouraged that sexual attraction?
The problem with these arguments is that it doesn't explain why there's gay people in some of the most virulently homophobic places in the world like Iran, the Palestinian Territories, or Alabama. What "social conditioning" did these people arise out of?
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Old 11-14-2006, 02:12 PM   #49
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer

Doesn't selection also act upon variant traits? Just because there is no single gene for population differences doesn't remove the underlying genetic basis for those differences.
I think you're missing my point. I was merely saying that if coemgen is relying on the fact that "there is no such thing as a homosexual gene" in order to argue that homosexuality is not a biologically occuring trait, then he should extend that (faulty) argument to race as well.

Obviously genetic composition is not a matter of single genes alone, and even not a matter of variance without them looked at out of context. The level of expression of gene products, for example plays a role. That is why coemgen's argument makes no sense, not in terms of molecular biology anyway.
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Old 11-14-2006, 02:23 PM   #50
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The lack of a gay gene was only part of my arguement anyway. Like Awanderer said, it deserves more investigation and there are people who say environment can be a factor.
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Old 11-14-2006, 06:05 PM   #51
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Originally posted by coemgen
The lack of a gay gene was only part of my arguement anyway. Like Awanderer said, it deserves more investigation and there are people who say environment can be a factor.
Right. So, basically, you're just coming up with any old excuse to justify your prejudice.

"It deserves more investigation." That line is as full of crap as when people say that a nuclear power infrastructure for hydrogen fuel cells would take "20 years to build." In other words, it will never be built. And, in other words, no amount of "investigation" will ever be enough.

Yep. Elton John seems quite prophetic.
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Old 11-14-2006, 10:07 PM   #52
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Thanks for calling me prejudice. I appreciate your labeling me.

If you go back to my first post in this thread, you'll see I said "I don't think gay marriage should exist -- at this point."

That means I'm open to it, once there's a definitive answer that gay people are actually born that way. If that comes up tomorrow, so be it. I mean that.

And why bring up Elton John's point again -- I haven't used religion to argue this point. I don't think you can use religion to argue against gay marriage. It doesn't work. That's why I haven't even tried.

I have nothing against gay people as people. I'm just asking this to be looked at more. I don't see why that makes me a bad person or someone who's predudice. Again, you're putting words in my mouth.
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Old 11-14-2006, 10:21 PM   #53
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Originally posted by coemgen
Thanks for calling me prejudice. I appreciate your labeling me.

If you go back to my first post in this thread, you'll see I said "I don't think gay marriage should exist -- at this point."

That means I'm open to it, once there's a definitive answer that gay people are actually born that way. If that comes up tomorrow, so be it. I mean that.

And why bring up Elton John's point again -- I haven't used religion to argue this point. I don't think you can use religion to argue against gay marriage. It doesn't work. That's why I haven't even tried.

I have nothing against gay people as people. I'm just asking this to be looked at more. I don't see why that makes me a bad person or someone who's predudice. Again, you're putting words in my mouth.
And speaking of the ad infinitum...(sorry...an allusion to the other thread here on this subject)...

I called out your prejudices based on several of your comments here:

Quote:
There's no proof of homosexuality being genetic (Johns Hopkins and others have found no proof at least). If it's not genetic, then it's developed some other way. The sad thing is, many people who are homosexual were sexually abused or had an emotionally distant father. With this in mind, I can make the argument that gay marriage shouldn't be allowed because it cements a relationship that's based on something unnatural. I'm not using the word sin here and I don't have to quote the Bible to make an arguement. If anything, the Bible has pushed me to love homosexuals as they should be loved -- as humans like the rest of us.
Perhaps I misunderstood your intentions somewhere (and feel free to clarify if I have done so). The bold-faced region, essentially, is as offensive to homosexuals as using eugenics to explain why black people are more apt to commit crimes than white people. That's why I called out a prejudice on your part, unintentional perhaps.
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Old 11-14-2006, 10:30 PM   #54
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Originally posted by coemgen
That means I'm open to it, once there's a definitive answer that gay people are actually born that way. If that comes up tomorrow, so be it. I mean that.
And one more thing. Why does this matter to you? There's no definitive answer as to the origin of heterosexuality, beyond some egocentric notion of "normal."

This is generally where I get offended by Western notions of "discovery." That is, until white heterosexual Westerners declare something to be so, then it is "undiscovered." The New World ends up being discovered by Christopher Columbus or, more generously, the Vikings. No, it was discovered 10,000+ years ago by Asiatic peoples that we now call "Native Americans." And now we're busy "discovering" all their traditional medicines with some condescending attitude that they just kind of threw together some weeds and didn't know what they were doing. Now it's up to "us" to let them know the "goldmine" that they were sitting on.

That's pretty much what you're doing here. It isn't enough that many gay youth understand that they're attracted to the same sex before they even knew that homosexuals ever existed. Or that anthropology has a wide body of examples that show that same-sex attraction is worldwide, regardless of the "nurture" aspects.

No. I guess we're all just supposed to wait for "whitey" to reinvent the wheel for us stupid minorities, and I'm not getting any younger, you know.
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Old 11-14-2006, 10:36 PM   #55
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Wow. You really like to make it personal, huh?

If people are offended, I'm sorry. That was not my intention. However, that's how I feel. Call it what you will. Let's just assume for a second, if that's possible, that it's not natural. That it is something learned or something developed abnormally. That doesn't seem fair to let people get married based on abnormal behavior and urges. I don't see any ounce of logic to that. And, once again, I'm not judging these people as people. I'm not saying they're horrible people.

Also, like I've said in a previous post, I know gay people who were sexually abused or had a horrible father figure. There's no prejudice there -- it's fact. They've told their stories to me. I've also read and heard stories of other homosexuals with similar backgrounds. You say it's just some right wing crap, yet the stories exist. How can you argue against that?
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Old 11-14-2006, 10:41 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ormus

And one more thing. Why does this matter to you?
As a voter, it means everything. It means my decision either way.

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It isn't enough that many gay youth understand that they're attracted to the same sex before they even knew that homosexuals ever existed.
This proves nothing.


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No. I guess we're all just supposed to wait for "whitey" to reinvent the wheel for us stupid minorities, and I'm not getting any younger, you know.
Take a chill pill, dude. I'm speaking from my pesonal point of view, which isn't going to change the world any time soon.
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Old 11-14-2006, 11:00 PM   #57
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Originally posted by coemgen
Wow. You really like to make it personal, huh?
Looks like plenty of people took Elton John's comments personally here, and nobody's even born with a religion. In fact, I'm considering possibly maybe commissioning a study to see if religion is genetic or just the product of sexual abuse or a distant father. If it's conclusively genetic, I'll consider legalizing it. But it will have to take more than one study. Several actually. And I won't be happy until one of those studies confirms exactly the result that I wanted ahead of time. Then we can stop.

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If people are offended, I'm sorry. That was not my intention. However, that's how I feel. Call it what you will. Let's just assume for a second, if that's possible, that it's not natural. That it is something learned or something developed abnormally. That doesn't seem fair to let people get married based on abnormal behavior and urges. I don't see any ounce of logic to that. And, once again, I'm not judging these people as people. I'm not saying they're horrible people.
No, I hear you. I mean, I really like white people. Some of them are my best friends. Really. But I like to keep to my own kind. I mean, you don't know if one of them is going to get into a drunken fit of rage and try to lynch me. I see what those whites did in the South all those years ago.

No offense.

I'm glad to hear that you have a definitive "anti-abnormal behavior" stance. I'd like a nice old fashioned hetero wedding myself. You know, one where I get crowned Holy Roman Emperor after marrying my first cousin, Whortense, Fürstin von Thurn and Taxis. It's kind of funny how many relatives we have in common!

And if Jesus was going to come back today, I can only hope that He can return into the arms of the Virgin Britney and her lovely husband, "K-Fed." I'm sure that a baby will patch their holy marriage back together. Maury Povich and I can only hope!

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Also, like I've said in a previous post, I know gay people who were sexually abused or had a horrible father figure. There's no prejudice there -- it's fact. They've told their stories to me. I've also read and heard stories of other homosexuals with similar backgrounds. You say it's just some right wing crap, yet the stories exist. How can you argue against that?
Oh right. How can I argue against that? You know, I love defending marriage so much that I'm considering a moratorium against opposite-sex unions here. I was watching the TV the other day and I saw all these hetero people talking about how they were sexually abused by their priests, and I'm concerned that my children will catch some hetero disease from them. You can never be too careful, right?

I think we're going to have to study it carefully, though. Lots of studies over many many years. And then when I get the study that says that heteros were conditioned to "be that way" from sexual abuse and distant fathers....well, we can make sure to stop then.
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Old 11-14-2006, 11:06 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
As a voter, it means everything. It means my decision either way.
Funny. I thought we were voting for politicians, not convening a papal conclave. Can I burn the ballots when we're done?!

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This proves nothing.
No....it proves nothing until a white heterosexual says it proves something.

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Take a chill pill, dude. I'm speaking from my pesonal point of view, which isn't going to change the world any time soon.
Ah you misread me. I just love spending $4000 trying to immigrate to Canada, so I can be with the love of my life. You know, since the Bible says that same-sex immigration is a form of marriage rite.

Oh sorry...there hasn't been a conclusive study telling me that I can love yet. I guess I'll have to wait to see what the study says before I know what I actually feel.
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Old 11-14-2006, 11:56 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ormus

Looks like plenty of people took Elton John's comments personally here, and nobody's even born with a religion. In fact, I'm considering possibly maybe commissioning a study to see if religion is genetic or just the product of sexual abuse or a distant father. If it's conclusively genetic, I'll consider legalizing it. But it will have to take more than one study. Several actually. And I won't be happy until one of those studies confirms exactly the result that I wanted ahead of time. Then we can stop.
Let me know what you find out.


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No, I hear you. I mean, I really like white people. Some of them are my best friends. Really. But I like to keep to my own kind. I mean, you don't know if one of them is going to get into a drunken fit of rage and try to lynch me. I see what those whites did in the South all those years ago.

I'm glad to hear that you have a definitive "anti-abnormal behavior" stance. I'd like a nice old fashioned hetero wedding myself. You know, one where I get crowned Holy Roman Emperor after marrying my first cousin, Whortense, Fürstin von Thurn and Taxis. It's kind of funny how many relatives we have in common!

And if Jesus was going to come back today, I can only hope that He can return into the arms of the Virgin Britney and her lovely husband, "K-Fed." I'm sure that a baby will patch their holy marriage back together. Maury Povich and I can only hope!
When in doubt, use sarcasm.

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Oh right. How can I argue against that? You know, I love defending marriage so much that I'm considering a moratorium against opposite-sex unions here. I was watching the TV the other day and I saw all these hetero people talking about how they were sexually abused by their priests, and I'm concerned that my children will catch some hetero disease from them. You can never be too careful, right?

I think we're going to have to study it carefully, though. Lots of studies over many many years. And then when I get the study that says that heteros were conditioned to "be that way" from sexual abuse and distant fathers....well, we can make sure to stop then.
You want so badly to label me as a hater. Is that what this disccusion has boiled down to? You shouldn't let emotions get into a good debate. Again, as I've said repeatedly, I'm just seeking to understand it before I support one way or the other. I think that's the case for most people. There's no hatred here or homophobia or whatever you want to throw at me -- just understanding. And yes, we do vote on this matter. It's called the amendment to ban gay marriage. It's been passed in nearly every state that's put it on the ballot. Some people might've voted it down out of hatred or fear. Not me. I need to understand it before I vote for it. Right now, there's not a lot out there for me to form a conclusive opinon. That's all I'm seeking. If it's such a big issue, why isn't there a healthy debate going on on TV, in print and elsewhere? Gay people saying "I'm born this way," isn't good enough for me, personally. (Again, to stress that, it's just me. One person.) Of course, the sad thing is that there may not be healthy dialogue or discussion or an open study on it because it's all political. And yes, I'm sincere when I say it's sad.
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Old 11-15-2006, 12:01 AM   #60
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I can't believe I'm still hearing this argument in the 21st century. Have you ever actually TALKED to a gay person? The fact that so-called "ex-gays" exist proves only one thing: people have a vested interest in being straight. So why would anyone choose to be gay? The fact that ex-gays continually backslide proves something else again - try as it might, a leopard cannot change its spots.

As for the nature versus nurture thing: examine the scientific evidence (assuming you haven't given up on science yet). It proves that gay people more often than not are born that way, and their brains are wired differently from straight people. Does it matter whether it's environmental or not? Would you deny someone the right to happiness because of some unchangeable part of their character, based on its cause alone?

Honestly. I can't believe I'm still hearing this argument.
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