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Old 11-20-2006, 09:32 PM   #286
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Originally posted by Ormus

and you will continue to be in my prayers.
I appreciate that.

Just a thought - even in conservative Christian circles this is the classic "non put down" put down.
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Old 11-20-2006, 09:39 PM   #287
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Originally posted by AEON
I appreciate that.

Just a thought - even in conservative Christian circles this is the classic "non put down" put down.
You're quite welcome. And, as a final thought...

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I seriously have learned that leaning on the Holy Spirit is required to understanding Scripture. Going into Scripture solely to provide links to support a point of view - does not demonstrate what I think is a genuine attempt to understand Scripture.
...this is quite the "non put down" put down.

But we are all sinners, after all. I can understand if your pride made you desire to "defeat me" here. But we cannot let our pride come before our faith!

Peace be with you.
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Old 11-20-2006, 09:40 PM   #288
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Can I just say how gratifying it has been to be completely ignored? I'm not sure if it's because I refuse to speak to you in the context of Biblical study (which is sort of like debating the existence of Bigfoot through discussion of the contents of The National Enquirer) or if it's because you can actually feel my white-hot rage threatening to melt your computer screen.

In either case, I'd like to leave you now to debate the nuances of Paul's stance on veils, while meanwhile, the rest of the world keeps turning.

Finally, we're here, we're queer, and God or no God, you have no choice but to get used to it.
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Old 11-20-2006, 09:54 PM   #289
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON

even in conservative Christian circles this is the classic "non put down" put down.
Have you read your own posts? Melon had it right, they smack of arrogance. I've seen you self righteously judge people's faith or assume they are something they aren't because they don't fit in your box(at least three that I know of), you've repeatedly ignored questions asked of you(too many to count), and you've done this all under the guise of snide remarks and attacks.

Personally I've given up on getting straight answers from you.
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Old 11-20-2006, 09:55 PM   #290
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And here's where our discussion here ends. I cannot carry on a discussion with someone who ultimately isn't interested in anything I'm saying, and then starts using faith-based nonsense as reasons to ignore me. I lean heavily on the Holy Spirit to understand Scripture. If you insist that I don't, why am I to take your word, at face value, that you do? Because you're a conservative Christian, and liberal Christians are supposed to respect you, by default?

I actually have respect for the liberal Christians. I actually hold many positions considered "liberal." Gay marriage just doesn’t happen to be one of them.

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Your arrogance ultimately astounds me, even for a cleric (and having been a part of the Catholic Church, I've certainly encountered my share of "holier-than-thou" hierarchy). I mean, you'd think that there were such a thing as different Christian denominations. Silly me. I guess I should ignore this handy diagram of different Christians...
I spent several years in "boy's homes" and made great friends with some priests (no - don't go there folks). I was in awe with their intelligence and wisdom. I am still in some part enthralled by the Catholic priests. There are many genuine priests that dedicate their entire lives to study and sharing the Gospel. That sort of dedication is admirable.

However, in my own studies – I have come to disagree with them on some things. As I disagree with my “conservative” pastor friends. I am also taking an interest in Narrative Theology – something that some conservatives deem “heretical.” You actually may want to check it out…I think it might be up your alley.


I have always been “on the edge” within any circle I find myself in.
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...because Satan must've gone back in time to create them to obscure us from your omnipotence.
I don’t understand your point. I am aware of the timeline of Christian church development. Like you – I learned in High School.

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Originally posted by Ormus

Six years ago, I was probably a bit naive to start these kind of arguments. I then understood "fundamentalism" to basically believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible. As such, discovering that the translation was incorrect should be sign that there's nothing wrong with a "literal interpretation" if the translation is actually accurate! But no...as I have come to understand, it is about tradition, status quo, and nothing more masquerading in a veneer of self-righteousness. No amount of reason, logic, and textual analysis will ever trump the burden of tradition. And that's where comparisons to the Pharisaic archetype in the NT starts to be quite accurate.
Like I said before – I am seen as quite “heretical” and “liberal” in some of my positions. I receive more criticism within the conservative Christian circles than you could possibly imagine. However, I don’t necessarily see that I need to be jumping on the “gay marriage” bandwagon in order to prove how avante garde my Christianity is.

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Truthfully, I don't care what you believe. I start caring when you start using those beliefs to work to legislate your prejudices. Or use those prejudices to start smear campaigns against all homosexuals. Or to instigate fear campaigns to get your way. Or to plant thoughts of inferiority or sickness into inquiring gay Christians. Whatever you might think, lying is still a sin, even if you might believe that the end justify the means.
Well, I don’t think I am lying and certainly do not engage in smear campaigns against homosexuality. You say homosexual sex is not a sin – I disagree. That doesn’t make me a monster.

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Let me make this clear before you start contorting what I've written here:

1) I don't hate you. I have no reason to hate you. It is God's law to love everyone--you included. It is our duty to love everyone, no matter how despicable they may seem, which is why I, for instance, strongly oppose the dominant conservative Christian love of the death penalty. Like you once said yourself, you can look for exception clauses all you want, but looking at the totality of the Bible, which is to love one another, the only people who can justify the death penalty with the Bible are people only interested in maintaining tradition at every and all costs.

2) In keeping for my love for you and all your fellow conservative Christians, I will pray that you see the light, just as Christian anti-Semites, misogynists, and racists all had to humbly experience from the blessings of the Holy Spirit in history. I see that, unlike many conservative Christians, you have a deeper respect for science. You're already ahead of the game, and I trust that your hardened heart will continue to grow in the love of Christ that I have experienced. Simple answers to complex problems might seem very appealing to you, and it might be difficult to defy all the conservative Christians you surround yourself with, but you once walked away from Gnosticism. I trust you'll be able to walk away from another heresy, if you pray to Jesus Christ hard enough.

3) I am a human being. And, contrary to the rumors, you are a human being yourself. And, like any human being, I am going to be apt to anger, mistakes, and rash judgments. But, if anything, I am guilty of being overly passionate, and such passion gives way to impatience. I cannot reasonably expect to erase over a millennium of perverted Christian theology in a day, and I shall continue to pray to the Lord for continued wisdom, stronger patience, and deeper empathy. We all have room for improvement. When was the last time you examined your conscience? Don't worry. That's a rhetorical question between you and God. It's none of my business.

And with this, I'm ultimately done with this thread. Although there's one last thing I'm going to comment on from someone else...
Thanks for the prayers and thanks for the discussion. It’s a shame you’ve left this thread – as I always look forward to your posts.
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Old 11-20-2006, 10:06 PM   #291
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Finally, we're here, we're queer, and God or no God, you have no choice but to get used to it.
I live just north of San Francisco. Trust me, I am used to it.
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Old 11-20-2006, 10:08 PM   #292
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These stories are not confirmation that Jesus condoned homosexual behavior.

okay, i want a new rule.

please STOP calling homosexuality anything other than an orientation -- it is not a behavior, it is not an impulse, it is not an act, it is an ORIENTATION. homosexuals do not commit "homosexual behavior" or "homosexual acts," they engage in "behavior" and "acts" with other homosexuals. sex is sex, so let's stop assuming that one sex act is intrinsically better/worse/different from another.

would you ever say that you were engaging in "heterosexual behavior"? NO. you'd say that you were having sex.

so accord me the same respect.
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Old 11-20-2006, 10:10 PM   #293
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Can I just say how gratifying it has been to be completely ignored? I'm not sure if it's because I refuse to speak to you in the context of Biblical study (which is sort of like debating the existence of Bigfoot through discussion of the contents of The National Enquirer) or if it's because you can actually feel my white-hot rage threatening to melt your computer screen.

In either case, I'd like to leave you now to debate the nuances of Paul's stance on veils, while meanwhile, the rest of the world keeps turning.

Finally, we're here, we're queer, and God or no God, you have no choice but to get used to it.


i totally hear you.

it astonishes how many don't realize that their own interpretations of the Bible are completely irrelevant in a wider context.
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Old 11-20-2006, 10:10 PM   #294
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okay, i want a new rule.

please STOP calling homosexuality anything other than an orientation -- it is not a behavior, it is not an impulse, it is not an act, it is an ORIENTATION. homosexuals do not commit "homosexual behavior" or "homosexual acts," they engage in "behavior" and "acts" with other homosexuals. sex is sex, so let's stop assuming that one sex act is intrinsically better/worse/different from another.

would you ever say that you were engaging in "heterosexual behavior"? NO. you'd say that you were having sex.

so accord me the same respect.
But I do seperate the acts with the orientation. Since I don't want to offend you - how else do I put it?
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Old 11-20-2006, 10:12 PM   #295
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okay, i want a new rule.

please STOP calling homosexuality anything other than an orientation -- it is not a behavior, it is not an impulse, it is not an act, it is an ORIENTATION. homosexuals do not commit "homosexual behavior" or "homosexual acts," they engage in "behavior" and "acts" with other homosexuals. sex is sex, so let's stop assuming that one sex act is intrinsically better/worse/different from another.

would you ever say that you were engaging in "heterosexual behavior"? NO. you'd say that you were having sex.

so accord me the same respect.
Good luck, I've asked him this before.
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Old 11-20-2006, 10:12 PM   #296
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Well, I don’t think I am lying and certainly do not engage in smear campaigns against homosexuality. You say homosexual sex is not a sin – I disagree. That doesn’t make me a monster.


but don't you see?

you're turning me into a monster.

and for what? and why?
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Old 11-20-2006, 10:13 PM   #297
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You're definitely NOT a monster in this preacher kid's eyes, Irvine


My dad would agree with me
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Old 11-20-2006, 10:14 PM   #298
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But I do seperate the acts with the orientation. Since I don't want to offend you - how else do I put it?


just call it sex.

or, be more honest: "when homosexuals love each other it is a sin."
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Old 11-20-2006, 10:15 PM   #299
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You're definitely NOT a monster in this preacher kid's eyes, Irvine


My dad would agree with me


i appreciate that.

it really does come down to the "ick factor" -- doesn't it?

anything to justify our own prejudices.
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Old 11-20-2006, 10:15 PM   #300
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Originally posted by Irvine511




but don't you see?

you're turning me into a monster.

and for what? and why?
I do not think you are a monster, Irvine. I only think that of BVS.
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