Elton john wants.... - Page 2 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 11-13-2006, 12:55 AM   #16
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,697
Local Time: 03:06 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean


Religion can be used as a convenient cloak for prejudice: "I don't like this so God doesn't like it either" but that hardly means religion is the source of the prejudice.
This is true, how many people are open minded and have no problem with homosexuality and then get religious later in their lives and then decide they need to condemn homosexuals? Probably very very few.
__________________

__________________
BVS is offline  
Old 11-13-2006, 10:44 AM   #17
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
1stepcloser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 3,764
Local Time: 10:06 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean


I'm sorry but no he really doesn't. Logically, religion does not inevitably lead to prejudice against gays (I'd be willing to accept that it could lead to prejudice against those not a part of the religion, so yes religion could foment certain types of prejudice--but not all). Can someone tell me what aspect of religion makes it inevitable that there will be hatred for gays? ESPECIALLY if you believe that religion is a man-made creation, you're going to have a hard time making your case.

Religion can be used as a convenient cloak for prejudice: "I don't like this so God doesn't like it either" but that hardly means religion is the source of the prejudice.
Elton is simply making the point that some religeons are stuck in their draconian ways and they find it very hard to accept that gay people exist. He'd rather live in a world where gay people are accepted for who they are than be banished from certain sections of society because of what some battered old manuscript says. I personally find it shocking that these kind of prejudices still exist outside of facist/nazi viewpoints.

I know not everyone of a religeous persuation despises homosexuals and that some religeons are worse than others but that fact that some people do hate gays purely because of what their religeon says and not because of the conclusions that they themselves have come to means that i think Elton has fair point.
__________________

__________________
1stepcloser is offline  
Old 11-13-2006, 01:16 PM   #18
Blue Crack Distributor
 
VintagePunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: In a dry and waterless place
Posts: 55,732
Local Time: 04:06 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


This is true, how many people are open minded and have no problem with homosexuality and then get religious later in their lives and then decide they need to condemn homosexuals? Probably very very few.
Evangelical fundamentalists, maybe?
__________________
VintagePunk is offline  
Old 11-13-2006, 01:19 PM   #19
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,697
Local Time: 03:06 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by VintagePunk


Evangelical fundamentalists, maybe?
But how many of them weren't homophobic before? That's my point.
__________________
BVS is offline  
Old 11-13-2006, 01:26 PM   #20
Blue Crack Distributor
 
VintagePunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: In a dry and waterless place
Posts: 55,732
Local Time: 04:06 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


But how many of them weren't homophobic before? That's my point.
I guess it would be hard to say. Perhaps it's the case that those non-homophobic people would be less likely to subscribe to that particular branch of Christianity later in life.
__________________
VintagePunk is offline  
Old 11-13-2006, 02:10 PM   #21
War Child
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 706
Local Time: 02:06 AM
I agree with Elton if we think of religion as "what we get when God has left the building."

In other words, it's not God that is anti-gay. It's people's distortion of God that is anti gay. The Bible says homosexuality is wrong much like eating shellfish is wrong. But for whatever reason, pinheads everywhere think it's God's commandment to rid the planet of homosexuality.
__________________
LPU2 is offline  
Old 11-13-2006, 05:01 PM   #22
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 09:06 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean


I'm sorry but no he really doesn't. Logically, religion does not inevitably lead to prejudice against gays (I'd be willing to accept that it could lead to prejudice against those not a part of the religion, so yes religion could foment certain types of prejudice--but not all). Can someone tell me what aspect of religion makes it inevitable that there will be hatred for gays? ESPECIALLY if you believe that religion is a man-made creation, you're going to have a hard time making your case.

Religion can be used as a convenient cloak for prejudice: "I don't like this so God doesn't like it either" but that hardly means religion is the source of the prejudice.
I agree with this. While hatred of gays certainly exists in organized religion, I don't think organized religion per se is the cause of prejudice against gays.
__________________
verte76 is offline  
Old 11-13-2006, 06:14 PM   #23
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
CTU2fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 5,366
Local Time: 05:06 AM
Just because some religious types would like to ban homosexuality Elton wants to ban religion? That makes a lot of sense - well, not so much.

Shut up & sing, indeed.
__________________
CTU2fan is offline  
Old 11-13-2006, 09:04 PM   #24
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
coemgen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
Posts: 3,962
Local Time: 04:06 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by LPU2
The Bible says homosexuality is wrong much like eating shellfish is wrong.
It says it in the New Testament, too.

Here's where I'm at. I don't think gay marriage should exist -- at this point. There's no proof of homosexuality being genetic (Johns Hopkins and others have found no proof at least). If it's not genetic, then it's developed some other way. The sad thing is, many people who are homosexual were sexually abused or had an emotionally distant father. With this in mind, I can make the argument that gay marriage shouldn't be allowed because it cements a relationship that's based on something unnatural. I'm not using the word sin here and I don't have to quote the Bible to make an arguement. If anything, the Bible has pushed me to love homosexuals as they should be loved -- as humans like the rest of us.

So, I don't think religion should be used to stop gays from marrying, I think, when other things are looked at honestly, the case can be made against it in other ways.

Do I hate gays now? Of course not. I'm friends with some. They're good people.
__________________
coemgen is offline  
Old 11-13-2006, 09:14 PM   #25
War Child
 
Ormus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Frontios
Posts: 758
Local Time: 05:06 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
There's no proof of homosexuality being genetic (Johns Hopkins and others have found no proof at least). If it's not genetic, then it's developed some other way. The sad thing is, many people who are homosexual were sexually abused or had an emotionally distant father.
Faulty logic, if I ever saw it. Find a room full of heterosexuals and you'll find plenty of people who were sexually abused or had an emotionally distant father.

It also doesn't explain away homosexuals who weren't sexually abused and were close with both of their non-divorced parents.

In other words, from an anthropological POV, it's faulty logic.

Quote:
With this in mind, I can make the argument that gay marriage shouldn't be allowed because it cements a relationship that's based on something unnatural.
And, yet, science has more than revealed homosexuality to be a part of nature, with same-sex behavior observed throughout the animal kingdom.

Let's look at it this way. Humanity is highly variable, with genetic variations/mutations existing with every possible human trait. Some variations are beneficial (a gene that makes you naturally immune to HIV infection), some are downright fatal (anencephaly), and some are completely neutral (tongue rolling). Why would one's sexuality be the *one* trait immune to the variability of nature? Seeing that we have heterosexuals, homosexuals, bisexuals, and asexuals, which cover the entire spectrum of sexuality, it's obvious that sexuality conforms exactly as expected in human nature and genetics.

Quote:
Do I hate gays now? Of course not. I'm friends with some. They're good people.
"I like black people. I'm friends with some. But gosh darn it, they had better learn to be put in their place and like it."

I hope you realize how insulting that sounds, even if I understand that your intentions are benign.
__________________
Ormus is offline  
Old 11-13-2006, 09:23 PM   #26
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
coemgen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
Posts: 3,962
Local Time: 04:06 AM
I didn't say it explained every case. You can't tell me that all homosexuals were born that way. That's faulty logic, too.

And comparing blacks to homosexuals isn't smart either. I know you're doing it to take a jab at me, but a lifestyle and a race are two different things. Don't use them to try to make a counter argument.
__________________
coemgen is offline  
Old 11-13-2006, 09:27 PM   #27
ONE
love, blood, life
 
indra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 12,689
Local Time: 05:06 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
You can't tell me that all homosexuals were born that way.
So....when exactly did you choose to become a heterosexual?
__________________
indra is offline  
Old 11-13-2006, 09:28 PM   #28
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
coemgen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
Posts: 3,962
Local Time: 04:06 AM
Apples to oranges, indra.
__________________
coemgen is offline  
Old 11-13-2006, 09:49 PM   #29
War Child
 
Ormus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Frontios
Posts: 758
Local Time: 05:06 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
I didn't say it explained every case. You can't tell me that all homosexuals were born that way. That's faulty logic, too.
It's not up to me to prove that burden. Noted anthropologist, Margaret Mead, was able to disprove the old axiom that teenage rebellion was genetic by finding a non-Western culture that had no teenage rebellion whatsoever. In other words, "an exception to the rule" disproves the rule completely.

For what it's worth, anthropology doesn't believe that a "gay gene" will ever be found, believing that we're all inherently bisexual, after long observations of non-Western cultures. A cursory glance at ancient Greece and Rome would probably confirm that too.

On the other hand, the fact that there are people who are exclusively heterosexual and exclusively homosexual tends to leave a gaping hole in their argument for inherent bisexuality. Regardless, the case for sexual variance being a part of nature has more than been proven. The exact origin of it is unknown, but even then, the exact origin of heterosexuality is unknown, as well. The specific genes for sexuality have yet to have been uncovered, but we're still, in many ways, in the infancy of deciphering the human genome in spite of all our progress over the last decade.

Your views on homosexuality are colored with Freudian stereotypes of psychosis and mental illness (which is precisely where you got those notions of sexual abuse and distant fathers from), which, when stacked up to the sum total of human knowledge, is an aberration in itself. Rest assured, though, those Freudian theories on sexuality were disproven long ago, and homosexuality hasn't been listed as a mental illness since the early 1970s.

Quote:
And comparing blacks to homosexuals isn't smart either. I know you're doing it to take a jab at me, but a lifestyle and a race are two different things. Don't use them to try to make a counter argument.
Methinks someone needs to take a cultural sensitivity course, if you can't see why I would find that insulting.
__________________
Ormus is offline  
Old 11-13-2006, 09:50 PM   #30
War Child
 
Ormus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Frontios
Posts: 758
Local Time: 05:06 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by indra
So....when exactly did you choose to become a heterosexual?
Why, through sexual abuse and a distant mother, of course.
__________________

__________________
Ormus is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:06 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com