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Old 11-18-2006, 08:39 PM   #211
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

His answer is different from yours. He admitted to the contradiction by saying not all of God's laws are easy to follow.



Nothing in the 10 commandments defines marriage though. So now you are back to your backward logic of forcing homosexuality to be adultery. You just stated anything outside of that is specific to place and time and can change.

But I ask again why would Paul make a point of this? Why do you as a literalist think Paul is just upholding "cultural" law, and other literalist see it as God's law? This is the point I'm getting to that you keep talking around.
Well, I am probably not the "literalist" you take me for. If you read the other threads, you can see I do stray from what you would consider a "literalist" point of view. While I do hold the entire Bible to be True – I do think that hyperbole, metaphor, and simile are literary devices that are often used by the authors (and used AGAINST Christianity).

The crux of the issue surrounds adultery. How should it be defined? (Biblically, since that is what I am referring to) I think we should read it not only in OT context, but also in the NT context where Paul and Jesus elaborate on it. “Thou shall no commit adultery” is one of God’s eternal laws. So then, you must ask yourself – what is adultery? In my opinion - the rest of the Bible gives an adequate answer.

I do not see any big problem here.
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Old 11-18-2006, 08:59 PM   #212
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Originally posted by AEON


The crux of the issue surrounds adultery. How should it be defined? (Biblically, since that is what I am referring to) I think we should read it not only in OT context, but also in the NT context where Paul and Jesus elaborate on it. “Thou shall no commit adultery” is one of God’s eternal laws. So then, you must ask yourself – what is adultery? In my opinion - the rest of the Bible gives an adequate answer.

I do not see any big problem here.
So then legalize gay marriage, and it won't be adultery. End of story. You already said anything outside of the 10 commandments can be changed.

You can't quote Paul anymore when talking about homosexuality. If you won't take his stance on women, then you shouldn't take his stance on homosexuality. This is exactly why I was so ademant about you answering the question. I thought maybe there was some logic behind differentiating between the two stances, his of women and his of homosexuality. But you never could. So for the sake of consistentcy no more quoting Paul on these subjects.

So now it comes to marriage. And since you admit that Paul was just speaking in terms his audience would understand when speaking of women, then Jesus was doing the same thing when he spoke of marriage and divorce. So really now there's nothing in your way, no more excuses.
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Old 11-18-2006, 09:24 PM   #213
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


So then legalize gay marriage, and it won't be adultery. End of story. You already said anything outside of the 10 commandments can be changed.

You can't quote Paul anymore when talking about homosexuality. If you won't take his stance on women, then you shouldn't take his stance on homosexuality. This is exactly why I was so ademant about you answering the question. I thought maybe there was some logic behind differentiating between the two stances, his of women and his of homosexuality. But you never could. So for the sake of consistentcy no more quoting Paul on these subjects.

So now it comes to marriage. And since you admit that Paul was just speaking in terms his audience would understand when speaking of women, then Jesus was doing the same thing when he spoke of marriage and divorce. So really now there's nothing in your way, no more excuses.
Marriage in God's eyes is not the same as marriage in the government’s eyes. If you think that God was referring to gay marriage when He gave Moses the Ten Commandments - I can’t stop you. Ultimately, it is between you and Him.

From a historical/Biblical perspective – the concept of marriage is self defining, and then elaborated upon by Jesus and Paul. That is why there was no need to put in footnotes to the command "Thou shall not commit adultery.”

There is no contradiction, my friend. If you want to argue the definition of “is” – feel free.
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Old 11-18-2006, 09:37 PM   #214
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Originally posted by AEON
I do think it is possible to love Christ and remain gay. I also believe the God's love does change our hearts over time. I wouldn't worry so much more about where you are today - and whether or not old fashioned dudes like AEON agree – or whether or not you need to cease being gay - just worry about where you will spend eternity (because, my friend, you are going to die some day - same as me...just take a few moments and think about that. Seriously think about that...no air, no heartbeat, no sounds...nothing. Could be tomorrow – or could be fifty or sixty years from now. But that day is coming.) Read a little about what Jesus says tonight – and if you have the tiniest bit of thirst for truth – He will satisfy it.



believe it or not, the whole 'what happens when you die' question has haunted me recently, and i've found the most solace from Buddhism -- that there is no birth and no death, there are merely manifestations under certain conditions.

that struck me as genuine wisdom, as well as intellecutally sound.

and the last thing i think you'd want is for someone to convert to Christianity out of fear, fear of what happens when you die, sort of a, "well, let's be christian because i want to cover my ass."



[q]Once you have the love of Christ in your heart and you are still happy being gay - I will simply be grateful that I will see you on the other side where none of this matters anymore. We may even have a sandwich together while listening to the Scissor Sisters.[/q]

but the only time i'm ever not happy being gay is when people make me unhappy for being gay -- when i get guilt or shame or threats of eternal damnation thrown at me. doesn't happen often, given where i live and the field in which i work, but it all stems from that as opposed to the thing itself -- no one has made me happier than Memphis, and i never would have found him if i were straight.



[q]Irvine, I can tell you are a kind person. If you were close – I would love to have a glass of wine and talk with you about a great many things. I despise the way many people have probably treated you throughout your life. In this forum, and others, I sometimes fall into the trap of defending what I believe what the Bible says or intends. However, in person – I really do try to listen more and say less (I do not claim success in this area, bu I do claim there is intense effort)[/q]

i appreciate what you say and i fully agree with you -- though i would say that in my own life i've been very, very lucky, as the person who treated me the worst for being gay, initially, was myself. i had to deal with myself first, and my own internalized homophobia, and my own internalized sense of gay shame, and when i turned back to the world ready to deal with all of that, it was shocking to realize how everyone was already a step or two ahead of me and how ashamed i was for selling many of my best friends (many of them avowdly heterosexual athletes) short.

i've been very, very lucky, but what you see from me in this forum is a reaction to the type of conservative Christianity that i do not encounter in everyday life (only Memphis's family, actually) as well as broader political dialogue and the curious feeling of being turned into a stereotype for any variety of societal ills by politicians.



Quote:
I don’t know…it is probably a balance of both.

i think that's a wise statement, and i genuinely understand your concerns and angst about this issue, because i see it in the face of Memphis's mother.

honestly, church-sanctioned homophobia hurts her more than it hurts Memphis, and i think this is true for many christians who might know and love gay people and are forced to reconcile what their church teaches them with what they experience in their lives.

i say: trust experience, filter everything through that.
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Old 11-18-2006, 09:41 PM   #215
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Yep, cause Melon is such a bully for standing up for who he is.

This combined with your last post makes me sick.

Example of PM:

[Q] Oh AEON, you are my hero. You stood up to those gay bullies in FYM.



I have been so scared to post on an internet forum because of them. They might challenge me to view the world differently.

They are so intolorant they do not want to hear the truth. That we love them, but hate the sin.

Amen brother!!!

[/Q]


gay. bully?



damn, that's hot ...
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Old 11-18-2006, 10:01 PM   #216
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Originally posted by Irvine511



believe it or not, the whole 'what happens when you die' question has haunted me recently, and i've found the most solace from Buddhism -- that there is no birth and no death, there are merely manifestations under certain conditions.

that struck me as genuine wisdom, as well as intellecutally sound.

Buddhism has caught my interest a few times in my life. In the end, the central difference I think is this: Buddha teaches that desire is the root of suffering. Get rid of desire – get rid of suffering. Christ never teaches that we won’t suffer. Instead, he teaches us to suffer for each other. I guess I find that this concepts rings true in a "we get to carry each other" kind of way.

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


and the last thing i think you'd want is for someone to convert to Christianity out of fear, fear of what happens when you die, sort of a, "well, let's be christian because i want to cover my ass."


Honestly, I don’t think it matters what leads you to the Cross – as long as you get there.


Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


[q]Once you have the love of Christ in your heart and you are still happy being gay - I will simply be grateful that I will see you on the other side where none of this matters anymore. We may even have a sandwich together while listening to the Scissor Sisters.[/q]

but the only time i'm ever not happy being gay is when people make me unhappy for being gay -- when i get guilt or shame or threats of eternal damnation thrown at me. doesn't happen often, given where i live and the field in which i work, but it all stems from that as opposed to the thing itself -- no one has made me happier than Memphis, and i never would have found him if i were straight.
I think that true joy is independent of circumstances. And as much as I love my wife and kids – I love Christ that much more. And because of that love – I know I will see them even after I die. A German official after World War II once said to Billy Graham: “Outside of the Resurrection – I know of no hope for mankind.” I completely agree.

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


[q]Irvine, I can tell you are a kind person. If you were close – I would love to have a glass of wine and talk with you about a great many things. I despise the way many people have probably treated you throughout your life. In this forum, and others, I sometimes fall into the trap of defending what I believe what the Bible says or intends. However, in person – I really do try to listen more and say less (I do not claim success in this area, bu I do claim there is intense effort)[/q]

i appreciate what you say and i fully agree with you -- though i would say that in my own life i've been very, very lucky, as the person who treated me the worst for being gay, initially, was myself. i had to deal with myself first, and my own internalized homophobia, and my own internalized sense of gay shame, and when i turned back to the world ready to deal with all of that, it was shocking to realize how everyone was already a step or two ahead of me and how ashamed i was for selling many of my best friends (many of them avowdly heterosexual athletes) short.

I am sorry to hear about your initial struggles. I am happy you have found some loving friends.

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


i've been very, very lucky, but what you see from me in this forum is a reaction to the type of conservative Christianity that i do not encounter in everyday life (only Memphis's family, actually) as well as broader political dialogue and the curious feeling of being turned into a stereotype for any variety of societal ills by politicians.
I understand. I am sure we would ALL seem “friendlier” in person. It always helps to have a human face looking back at you. (well, maybe not always, but you get the point)




Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511



i think that's a wise statement, and i genuinely understand your concerns and angst about this issue, because i see it in the face of Memphis's mother.

honestly, church-sanctioned homophobia hurts her more than it hurts Memphis, and i think this is true for many christians who might know and love gay people and are forced to reconcile what their church teaches them with what they experience in their lives.

i say: trust experience, filter everything through that.
Yes, it can be tough to reconcile what the Bible teaches and what the world (or even experience) teaches. However, the Bible’s greatest command is love – and I hope your boyfriend’s mother remembers that.
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Old 11-18-2006, 10:14 PM   #217
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Originally posted by AEON


Marriage in God's eyes is not the same as marriage in the government’s eyes. If you think that God was referring to gay marriage when He gave Moses the Ten Commandments - I can’t stop you. Ultimately, it is between you and Him.
Why wouldn't he be, anything in the 10 commandments say otherwise?
Quote:
Originally posted by AEON

From a historical/Biblical perspective – the concept of marriage is self defining, and then elaborated upon by Jesus and Paul.
What do you mean by self-defining?

Do any of the defintions of marriage in the Bible say anything about consent, age, or race? No but I'm sure God has his standards on those. Why is it so hard to imagine that man and woman was used because that was the concept they would understand at that time? If your only reason for defining marriage by man and woman because that's the way it was stated, then you believe a man can only divorce a woman, for that's the only way IT was stated.
Quote:
Originally posted by AEON

That is why there was no need to put in footnotes to the command "Thou shall not commit adultery.”

There is no contradiction, my friend. If you want to argue the definition of “is” – feel free.
Why would you footnote adultery?

I still see a huge contradiction.
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Old 11-18-2006, 10:17 PM   #218
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In the end, the central difference I think is this: Buddha teaches that desire is the root of suffering. Get rid of desire – get rid of suffering.
Makes sense.
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Old 11-18-2006, 10:49 PM   #219
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Personally, I'm uninterested in theology that fixates on how "flawed" or "evil" we are. That would include my distaste for the concept of "original sin" and the Buddhist tendencies towards aestheticism (although Zen Buddhist philosophy is quite interesting in its own regard).

Looking at the science, I see no reason that we aren't perfect as we are, because when I imagine the possibilities of life without those qualities, I see a worse alternative. In short, the ability to make bad decisions is also coupled with the ability to make good decisions, and that's better than not being able to make any decisions at all.
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Old 11-18-2006, 10:54 PM   #220
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Makes sense.
Yes, it does. That is why it has always been so popular. I have a Buddhist that comes to my Bible Study. Very bright man.

Ultimately - I do desire an authentic, personal relationship with God. And with that comes suffering. And you know what - that pure joy is something I wouldn't trade for the tears.

My Buddhist friend understands that Buddhism offers him no hope of seeing his loved ones again after they die - or after his own death. Perhaps that's why he came to my study. Perhaps it was only to listen and share. But those who sincerely seek the Truth - will respond when they hear it.

Jesus did go to the mountain top, and Jesus did seek seclusion in the Wilderness; but He came back to suffer with us...and to suffer for us. There are no words to adequately express my gratitude that Christ desired a relationship with me so badly - that He died to make it happen.


Love.
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Old 11-18-2006, 11:40 PM   #221
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INDY - Are those horrific lyrics from an Elton John song?
From 1971's Tumbleweed Connection album. One of my favorite songs, and to be fair taken out of context, but I'm afraid future listening's will always remind me of Sir Elton John's asinine comments.
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Old 11-18-2006, 11:53 PM   #222
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Originally posted by Irvine511

Scissor Sisters. have been obsessed with their new album and especially the lead single, "i don't feel like dancing."

You do realize they have a hand in all this don't you? Elton's (oh, I'll be nice and use the word "controversial") comments are from an interview with Jake Shears of the Scissor Sisters.
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Old 11-19-2006, 03:41 AM   #223
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Ultimately - I do desire an authentic, personal relationship with God. And with that comes suffering. And you know what - that pure joy is something I wouldn't trade for the tears.
Yeah, but "desire" from a core definition wouldn't intale this...

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Originally posted by AEON

My Buddhist friend understands that Buddhism offers him no hope of seeing his loved ones again after they die - or after his own death. Perhaps that's why he came to my study. Perhaps it was only to listen and share. But those who sincerely seek the Truth - will respond when they hear it.
This is a sad point of view. For you are saying that everyone born of a different region and religion won't see heaven. A very limited view of God's power...


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Love.
For once I agree with part of your post!
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Old 11-19-2006, 09:59 AM   #224
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511



believe it or not, the whole 'what happens when you die' question has haunted me recently, and i've found the most solace from Buddhism -- that there is no birth and no death, there are merely manifestations under certain conditions.

that struck me as genuine wisdom, as well as intellecutally sound.

and the last thing i think you'd want is for someone to convert to Christianity out of fear, fear of what happens when you die, sort of a, "well, let's be christian because i want to cover my ass."
That's good you're questioning what happens after we die, but keep in mind that truth isn't always what's appealing to us. Truth, especially spiritual truth, shouldn't be in fashion.

And I don't think anyone should become a Christian out of fear either. That's not at all what it's about or what Christ put out there. If anything, someone should consider to to have peace instead of fear. That's certainly something it's given me.
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Old 11-19-2006, 10:25 AM   #225
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It's pretty simple, how does that website prove Paul was only talking about cultural law when he states women can't teach men?
Hey BVS, here's some other verses of women teaching men in the Bible for you. When reading any letter in the Bible, it's important to consider who it was written to. For example, Corinthians was written to the crazy church at Corinth that had lost all order in its worship. Paul sent out a long list of guidelines to restore that order.

Here’s an example where a woman taught a man: Acts 18:24-26: "Meanwhile a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was a learned man, with a thorough knowledge of the Scriptures. He had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and he spoke with great fervor and taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew only the baptism of John. He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately."

This also is in Acts – a clear example of God working through women to spread his vision and purpose: Acts 2:18: "Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy."

And of course, don’t forget, it was women who told the disciples about the risen Christ. Matthew 28:5-10: "The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. Then go quickly and tell his disciples: 'He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.' Now I have told you." Suddenly Jesus met them [the women]. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me.""

Not only was Jesus' resurrection taught by women, but his birth was taught by a woman as well: Luke 2:36-8 "There was also a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was very old; she had lived with her husband seven years after her marriage, and then was a widow until she was eighty-four. She never left the temple but worshiped night and day, fasting and praying. Coming up to them at that very moment, she gave thanks to God and spoke about the child to all who were looking forward to the redemption of Jerusalem."

Then there’s Paul’s moving teaching in Galatians 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

BTW, is that NB who is no longer posting here? Why?
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