Eliminate the divinity.....tell me about the man

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Dreadsox

ONE love, blood, life
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So let's be Thomas jefferson for a minute. Eliminate the divinity of Jesus, and make our own Bible. What do you feel the message of the man is?
 
"Owe nothing to anyone, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this saying, (namely) "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no evil to the neighbor; hence, love is the fulfillment of the law." -- Romans 13:8-10

That's it.

Melon
 
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do unto others as you would have done unto you.

while i don't think this Golden Rule originated with Jesus, he certainly popularized it in the West.

in a secular way, it is how i try to live my life.
 
Eliminate the divinity?

Jesus was a man

Like me

My equal

Has no authority over me

Had lots of good ideas - so have many others

I can follow his ideas if they may me feel good.

Otherwise, I can put his ideas on a shelf and pick the ideas of someone else

He was just a man

Like me

With no authority over me

If you eliminate the divinity
 
But you can eliminate the divinity and still respect Jesus. Jesus was not a man like me, he was a better man than me. Therefore, I respect his ideas as better than mine, no?

All ideas are not equivalent. Some ideas are better than others. Peace, freedom and democracy are better than war, serfdom and fascism.
 
the message might be that even when you just try to lead a good life people might still end up nailing you to a cross
but that doesn't mean your life was in vain
quite the opposite, because you did try to lead a good life
 
nbcrusader said:
Eliminate the divinity?

Jesus was a man

Like me

My equal

Has no authority over me

Had lots of good ideas - so have many others

I can follow his ideas if they may me feel good.

Otherwise, I can put his ideas on a shelf and pick the ideas of someone else

He was just a man

Like me

With no authority over me

If you eliminate the divinity

And given the fact that a majority of the world has this interpretation, why not step back and discuss it without arguing over the divinity?
 
Why the need for authority?

as a child I needed authoritarian figures

I don’t want a daddy anymore or a king for that matter

I would rather follow someone whose teachings and beliefs I respect
 
Dreadsox said:


And given the fact that a majority of the world has this interpretation, why not step back and discuss it without arguing over the divinity?

That Jesus was just a man and not God?

Believers are called to share who Jesus is, not who they want to believe He is.
 
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deep said:
Why the need for authority?

as a child I needed authoritarian figures

I don’t want a daddy anymore or a king for that matter

I would rather follow someone whose teachings and beliefs I respect

Why the need for authority?

Because you can follow someone whose teachings and beliefs you respect until you don't want to.

And when we do follow the teachings, it is to show how good we are, not obedient to an almighty Sovereign.
 
NB, no offense, start a thread about the divinity then. I asked for a simple discussion based on the kind of thing Thomas Jefferson did. I recognize this may not be what you believe, but the last thing I wanted was a debate about the divinity of Christ. While this is essential to being a Christian in todays world, it is also a major road block when trying to have a discussion about the messasge.
 
Dreadsox said:
NB, no offense, start a thread about the divinity then. I asked for a simple discussion based on the kind of thing Thomas Jefferson did. I recognize this may not be what you believe, but the last thing I wanted was a debate about the divinity of Christ. While this is essential to being a Christian in todays world, it is also a major road block when trying to have a discussion about the messasge.

I understand. I think my original post addressed your question if I viewed Jesus the man.
 
Dreadsox said:
NB, no offense, start a thread about the divinity then. I asked for a simple discussion based on the kind of thing Thomas Jefferson did. I recognize this may not be what you believe, but the last thing I wanted was a debate about the divinity of Christ. While this is essential to being a Christian in todays world, it is also a major road block when trying to have a discussion about the messasge.

The message of what, "repent for the kingdom of heaven is near." ?

Edited to add... so much for my giving up debating in online forums! :wink:
 
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So much for my hope that people could discuss things in the spirit of the Jefferson Bible.

As far as I knew I was not starting a debate.
 
Dreadsox said:
So much for my hope that people could discuss things in the spirit of the Jefferson Bible.

As far as I knew I was not starting a debate.

Well what did you think would happen? You ask a question about eliminating the divinity of Jesus like Thomas Jefferson did but you didn't expect some people to raise an eyebrow?

Considering Jefferson cut out parts of the New Testament in which Jesus Himself spoke a message of His own divinity shows that Jefferson did not want to accept the entire message of Christ. Jefferson created a view which suited him. That first off was not the message of Jesus. The picking and chosing of a way that suits our individual lifestyles and whims is not what I would call a central concept of Jesus' ministry.

Anyway, if you have someone that views Jesus as God they don't have the capacity to look past His divinity. You are asking them to do something which is intrinsically impossible. To those that do not see Him as divine they will just say what they always do... "He was a revolutionary thinker and if only we could embrace what He "really" taught then the world would be such a great place."
I don't see how this question would elicit any replies that would be different from what is usually said. The traditional Christians on one side getting pissed off at the mere thought of even viewing Christ as anything less than divine. (How could some of us get past that to even contemplate the rest of it?) Then on the other side you have everyone else going on about how lovey dovey His message was.

I also don't see how you couldn't see this as a hot-button issue. The word "Jesus" alone is controversial. But if you say that you honestly didn't think it would lead to a debate I believe you.

OK for the sake of discourse lets say Jesus was not divine. The first words which came from His lips at the onset of His ministry were "Repent for the kingdom of heaven is near", everything else that followed only expounded on the initial concept. So that was Jesus' message, divinely stated or otherwise.
 
Nelson: Hey Simpson, I hear your sister dumped Christianity!
Bart: Who cares?
Dolph: I'll tell you someone who cares. He's got long hair, works as a carpenter, has a lot of crazy ideas about love and brotherhood!
Jimbo: His name's Gunther and he's dating my mom. Sometimes he buys us beer.
Bart: I thought Kearney was dating your mom.
Kearney: Hey, she came on to me.
 
As a side note, the argument over "divinity" versus "humanity" is as old as Christianity itself. More "liberal" Christians emphasized the humanity, while "conservative" Christians emphasized the divinity.

According to the doctrine of the time, both are incorrect or both are correct, depending on how you look at it. Jesus is 100% divine and 100% human. Thus, I think it's perfectly appropriate to talk about Jesus' humanity, as he is 100% human, in addition to his divinity.

Secondly, it is a relevant question, as Islam sees Jesus as an important prophet, but not divine. So what should Muslims find relevant about Jesus' message as a prophet and not a "God"?

Melon
 
melon said:
As a side note, the argument over "divinity" versus "humanity" is as old as Christianity itself. More "liberal" Christians emphasized the humanity, while "conservative" Christians emphasized the divinity.

According to the doctrine of the time, both are incorrect or both are correct, depending on how you look at it. Jesus is 100% divine and 100% human. Thus, I think it's perfectly appropriate to talk about Jesus' humanity, as he is 100% human, in addition to his divinity.

Secondly, it is a relevant question, as Islam sees Jesus as an important prophet, but not divine. So what should Muslims find relevant about Jesus' message as a prophet and not a "God"?

Melon

To address your sidenote. This thread was not started to debate the divinity of Christ but it naturally turned into that.

I am not talking about what is or is not appropriate. I am saying that posing a question that starts out with "eliminate the divinity...." will naturally garner responses that pertain to Christ's divinity. Again, debating the divinity of Christ was not what this thread was intended as Dread said. I do see where he is coming from on that. I just don't see how he thought it would actually happen, considering the views of some people who post here in FYM.

In terms of followers of Islam. I wouldn't think they would find anything about Jesus' message to be any more relevant than that of say Moses. But that is what happens when you eliminate the divinity of Christ. You reduce His message to that of only a man who held a "good vibrations" approach to spirituality and faith.
 
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thacraic said:


I don't see how this question would elicit any replies that would be different from what is usually said. The traditional Christians on one side getting pissed off at the mere thought of even viewing Christ as anything less than divine. (How could some of us get past that to even contemplate the rest of it?) Then on the other side you have everyone else going on about how lovey dovey His message was.

I also don't see how you couldn't see this as a hot-button issue. The word "Jesus" alone is controversial. But if you say that you honestly didn't think it would lead to a debate I believe you.


"Traditional Christians getting pissed off at the mere thought of even viewing Christ as anything less than divine."

In that case I suggest they expand their horizons. I suggest to you that non-Christians have a right to be just as pissed off at the mere thought of suggesting that Christ may have been divine.
 
thacraic said:
You reduce His message to that of only a man who held a "good vibrations" approach to spirituality and faith.

So "Divine Jesus" is a hateful tyrant, while "Human Jesus" said to "Love one another"?

I think this is less about Jesus' divinity than with connotations. Talking about "love" and "humanity" is "hippie liberal talk." "Divine Jesus" is still the same guy who said "Love one another."

Melon
 
financeguy said:


"Traditional Christians getting pissed off at the mere thought of even viewing Christ as anything less than divine."

In that case I suggest they expand their horizons. I suggest to you that non-Christians have a right to be just as pissed off at the mere thought of suggesting that Christ may have been divine.

Yes and that is to be expected. That is the point I am making with my post. The entire premise is going to lead into this sort of discussion of divinity, while the message of Christ is going to be tossed to the side.

Strawman anyway. Take a small snipet of what is said (out of context no less) and try to make it appear as something it isn't. Then try to debate the statement as though that was the crux of the entire post.

That is one thing I am trying to learn to overlook. It is just difficult and frustrating at times.
 
melon said:


So "Divine Jesus" is a hateful tyrant, while "Human Jesus" said to "Love one another"?

I think this is less about Jesus' divinity than with connotations. Talking about "love" and "humanity" is "hippie liberal talk." "Divine Jesus" is still the same guy who said "Love one another."

Melon

The only people who say Divine Jesus is a hateful tyrant are those that focus on the Human Jesus.

Edited to add: That didn't make any sense in the way I phrased that.

What I mean is that I kinda sense that people who focus only on His message of love tend to think that if you view Him any other way, it would be believing in tyrant. Those of us who look at His message of repentence or look at His saying we should be obedient to God are maybe thought to be believing in something that He didn't really teach. That the ulitmate message is love love love and nothing else but. That is what I meant.
 
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thacraic said:


To address your sidenote. This thread was not started to debate the divinity of Christ but it naturally turned into that.

I am not talking about what is or is not appropriate. I am saying that posing a question that starts out with "eliminate the divinity...." will naturally garner responses that pertain to Christ's divinity. Again, debating the divinity of Christ was not what this thread was intended as Dread said. I do see where he is coming from on that. I just don't see how he thought it would actually happen, considering the views of some people who post here in FYM.

In terms of followers of Islam. I wouldn't think they would find anything about Jesus' message to be any more relevant than that of say Moses. But that is what happens when you eliminate the divinity of Christ. You reduce His message to that of only a man who held a "good vibrations" approach to spirituality and faith.

Here is what Dread expected. Dread expected people who could NOT respect the nature of the question to not bother responding. There are plenty of threads that I do not respond to, because I find that I cannot without causing a little fuss. Apparently people cannot do that, they lack the self-control, or the ability to allow others to have a different point of view. Which is amusing since the name of the forum is Free Your Mind....

Considering the fact that in general most people in this Forum are respectful of the threads intent....and when they are called on something, stop....I did expect a decent discussion. My thanks to those who can handle discusssions without causing there to be an off topic debate.

How hard is it to start your own thread on why the divinity is essential to you? Why clutter this one with the same old same old?
 
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