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Old 02-14-2005, 09:24 AM   #31
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Why the need for authority?

Because you can follow someone whose teachings and beliefs you respect until you don't want to.

And when we do follow the teachings, it is to show how good we are, not obedient to an almighty Sovereign.


i'd rather be good than obedient.

i can trust in my own free will, rationality, and gut sense of right and wrong more than i can trust in a how-to manuel that's been passed along over a few melinneia, through several translations and centuries of political manipulation.

if the bible says something, and i know it to be wrong based upon my experience, and i make this decision in good faith, then i will reject what the bible says because it is the right thing to do.

also, if jesus were 100% man, and 100% god, would that not make his teachings as errant and fallable as any man-made teachings? should we not, like i believe with the Bible, understand and perhaps emulate the spirit of the law and not the letter?

should we not interpret the bible the way judges interpret the constitution? should the bible not change as our view of history and humanity change, as does the Constitution?

removing the devine from Jesus, to me, makes the message that much more powerful. forget shock and awe from above; give me a heart pumping human blood and a mind wracked with doubt and uncertainty, show me the two working in tandem to make a better world.
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Old 02-14-2005, 10:06 AM   #32
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If we can salvage this thread at all, can we try to keep with what Dread intended, and the naysayers are free to open their own thread(s)?
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Old 02-14-2005, 01:01 PM   #33
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Originally posted by Dreadsox


Here is what Dread expected. Dread expected people who could NOT respect the nature of the question to not bother responding. There are plenty of threads that I do not respond to, because I find that I cannot without causing a little fuss. Apparently people cannot do that, they lack the self-control, or the ability to allow others to have a different point of view. Which is amusing since the name of the forum is Free Your Mind....

Considering the fact that in general most people in this Forum are respectful of the threads intent....and when they are called on something, stop....I did expect a decent discussion. My thanks to those who can handle discusssions without causing there to be an off topic debate.

How hard is it to start your own thread on why the divinity is essential to you? Why clutter this one with the same old same old?
You know what? I was going to say all these polite things and apologize for not staying on topic, I deleted all of that because that is bollox. It is on topic. If you or anyone else can not see that then ask yourself why.

You are essentially asking for certain people not to stand up for the truth. So bollox to that. Any Christian that believes Jesus is God is not going to just stand by as people look at Him as something other than He isn't. I have to think we are PROMPTED not to! And this is not out of tradition, not out of what we learned in Sunday School when we were 8 years old, but its out of our experiencal knowledge of God that comes from having a personal relationship with Him. It would be like just standing by silently like a prat while someone is saying something about your friend that just flat out isn't true. Sorry I am going to speak up. If that shows I don't have self control, then yeh! you are right, in that respect I certainly don't and am glad for that.

You don't really want the truth about the message of Christ. To start out by even suggesting He is not divine is evident of that. When you get down to it, it can not be done. If you want to talk about great philosiphers fine, but I would suggest leaving Jesus out of it because He is much more than that.

So say I have no self control, infer I do not allow others to have point a view ( I am not the one requesting only certain people respond in a certain way) whatever you want to do. Call me a naysayer. I really don't care at this point.

I am just sick of this attitude towards Christ and Christianity (yes the traditional, conservative, fundemental beliefs of it or whatever people want to call it) and any oppurtunity I have to speak out against it I will seize.
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Old 02-14-2005, 01:08 PM   #34
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It's just a hypothetical discussion, people. Just a "what if" thing of sorts. I don't think anyone's expecting those of you who think Jesus is divine to automatically change your beliefs about him or anything like that. No, this is just a thread for people to try to imagine him differently and see if his message would still ring true and all that stuff. As stated in this thread, we can also certainly have a thread in which people who don't think Jesus is divine can imagine him as such for a moment and see if his message still rings true there, too. I highly doubt this thread was started to offend anyone.

Angela
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Old 02-14-2005, 01:16 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by paxetaurora


If we can salvage this thread at all, can we try to keep with what Dread intended, and the naysayers are free to open their own thread(s)?
I really don't see it as fair to try and silence a group of people or a person in this forum ( it may be 2 people it may be 20 it may be just me) when they are commenting on something that is directly related to the thread topic. I can't tell you how many threads I have been in that have branched off into a million directions due to a strawman and/or an ad hominem apporach to debating and nothing is ever said about it. So it suprises me when something that it is right in line with what is being discussed (when you get down to the brass tacks of it) is said to be off the topic or furthermore could potentially cause the thread to be closed.

How is it naysaying to offer up a view that is contrary to the initial one brought up in the post anyway?
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Old 02-14-2005, 01:25 PM   #36
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dread, no need to reply to thacraic, regular posters know you are a legit Christian

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
So let's be Thomas jefferson for a minute. Eliminate the divinity of Jesus, and make our own Bible. What do you feel the message of the man is?

here is "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth" Thomas Jefferson, it is about 30 pages.

When I get to my office tomorrow, I will print it and read it.
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Old 02-14-2005, 01:32 PM   #37
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Originally posted by thacraic
I am just sick of this attitude towards Christ and Christianity (yes the traditional, conservative, fundemental beliefs of it or whatever people want to call it) and any oppurtunity I have to speak out against it I will seize.
Likewise. I'm sick of traditional, conservative, fundamentalist "Christians" monopolizing on the nature of Jesus Christ, and (either implicitly or explicitly) condemning more "liberal Christians" as either "picking or choosing," being "relativist," or just downright being "non-believers" who need to be "born again."

Likewise, I don't think you don't really want the truth about the message of Christ. You're just interested in maintaining your "traditions." Well, guess what? Any opportunity I have to speak out against it, I will seize.

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Old 02-14-2005, 01:36 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon


Likewise. I'm sick of traditional, conservative, fundamentalist "Christians" monopolizing on the nature of Jesus Christ, and (either implicitly or explicitly) condemning more "liberal Christians" as either "picking or choosing," being "relativist," or just downright being "non-believers" who need to be "born again."

Likewise, I don't think you don't really want the truth about the message of Christ. You're just interested in maintaining your "traditions." Well, guess what? Any opportunity I have to speak out against it, I will seize.

Melon
Maybe you shouldn't have left this part of my post out

Quote:
And this is not out of tradition, not out of what we learned in Sunday School when we were 8 years old, but its out of our experiencal knowledge of God that comes from having a personal relationship with Him.
But then if you did it wouldnt really gel with your comment about my "maintaining my 'traditions' " so it is understandable.
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Old 02-14-2005, 01:50 PM   #39
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Originally posted by thacraic
But then if you did it wouldnt really gel with your comment about my "maintaining my 'traditions' " so it is understandable.
If "conservative Christianity" was really about a "personal relationship with God," then I don't understand their zeal to legislate their "personal relationship" onto others who disagree. Frankly, actions speak louder than words. As far as I'm concerned, it's empty rhetoric.

But that's besides the point. I'm not going to comment on your personal beliefs, because I don't know you. I'm disappointed that this thread became what it did, and this always seems to be the trend:

1) Dreadsox tries to make people think about religion outside of orthodoxy.

2) Conservative Christians come in, refuse to entertain anything outside rigid orthodoxy, and then ruin the thread for the rest of us.

I shouldn't be surprised. This happened with his marriage thread, as well. If you didn't like this thread, you could have either ignored it or started a thread on Jesus' "divine" characteristics. This thread is about Jesus' "human" characteristics. If Jesus is 100% divine and 100% human, according to orthodox beliefs, then it is worth debating as to what made Jesus "human."

Melon
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Old 02-14-2005, 02:00 PM   #40
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Originally posted by thacraic


If you want to talk about great philosiphers fine, but I would suggest leaving Jesus out of it because He is much more than that.

The question was posed by the moderator at an early Republican presidential debate in 1999: "Who is your favorite political philosopher?" George W. Bush declared, "Jesus Christ, because he changed my life."
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Old 02-14-2005, 02:03 PM   #41
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Originally posted by thacraic


You know what? I was going to say all these polite things and apologize for not staying on topic, I deleted all of that because that is bollox. It is on topic. If you or anyone else can not see that then ask yourself why.

You are essentially asking for certain people not to stand up for the truth. So bollox to that. Any Christian that believes Jesus is God is not going to just stand by as people look at Him as something other than He isn't. I have to think we are PROMPTED not to! And this is not out of tradition, not out of what we learned in Sunday School when we were 8 years old, but its out of our experiencal knowledge of God that comes from having a personal relationship with Him. It would be like just standing by silently like a prat while someone is saying something about your friend that just flat out isn't true. Sorry I am going to speak up. If that shows I don't have self control, then yeh! you are right, in that respect I certainly don't and am glad for that.

You don't really want the truth about the message of Christ. To start out by even suggesting He is not divine is evident of that. When you get down to it, it can not be done. If you want to talk about great philosiphers fine, but I would suggest leaving Jesus out of it because He is much more than that.

So say I have no self control, infer I do not allow others to have point a view ( I am not the one requesting only certain people respond in a certain way) whatever you want to do. Call me a naysayer. I really don't care at this point.

I am just sick of this attitude towards Christ and Christianity (yes the traditional, conservative, fundemental beliefs of it or whatever people want to call it) and any oppurtunity I have to speak out against it I will seize.
Wow, did you get this offended as a child when you were asked to use your imagination or play "what if" games?
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Old 02-14-2005, 02:08 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel
It's just a hypothetical discussion, people. Just a "what if" thing of sorts. I don't think anyone's expecting those of you who think Jesus is divine to automatically change your beliefs about him or anything like that. No, this is just a thread for people to try to imagine him differently and see if his message would still ring true and all that stuff. As stated in this thread, we can also certainly have a thread in which people who don't think Jesus is divine can imagine him as such for a moment and see if his message still rings true there, too. I highly doubt this thread was started to offend anyone.

Angela
thank you Angela........

I appreciate your post. You put into words EXACTLY how I feel about it. It saddens me to no end, that people cannot help themselves but to turn everything into a you are wrong I am right kind of a situation. If you do not like the topic, or cannot stick to the basic premise of the thread, no one forced you to type in the thread.
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Old 02-14-2005, 02:10 PM   #43
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PAX

If you are there, please DO NOT close it.....

U2Bama sent me an email promising to post in here.....It has been so long since he posted, I cannot wait to see him bitch slap me.....hehe
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Old 02-14-2005, 02:13 PM   #44
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LOL, how did you know I'd be looking in on it?

I'll leave it open...for now.

Thacraic, I think everyone is right...this is meant to be a "what-if" sort of thread, nothing more. No need to take offense. I know it wasn't meant that way, as Dread is a very thoughtful and devout person.
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Old 02-14-2005, 02:15 PM   #45
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Come on folks. This is FYM. Practically every thread strays from the original topic.

It seems unreasonable to start a thread with a fairly open-ended question and expect only certain responses.

If someone started the "Tell me why non-Christians go to hell" thread, my guess is that the majority of responses would be why the statement made in the title of the thread was wrong.

Perhaps if the thread was focused on some of the statements of Jefferson, we would stay "on track"
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