Eliminate the divinity.....tell me about the man

[Irvine511]

Why the need for authority?

Because you can follow someone whose teachings and beliefs you respect until you don't want to.

And when we do follow the teachings, it is to show how good we are, not obedient to an almighty Sovereign.

i'd rather be good than obedient.

i can trust in my own free will, rationality, and gut sense of right and wrong more than i can trust in a how-to manuel that's been passed along over a few melinneia, through several translations and centuries of political manipulation.

if the bible says something, and i know it to be wrong based upon my experience, and i make this decision in good faith, then i will reject what the bible says because it is the right thing to do.

also, if jesus were 100% man, and 100% god, would that not make his teachings as errant and fallable as any man-made teachings? should we not, like i believe with the Bible, understand and perhaps emulate the spirit of the law and not the letter?

should we not interpret the bible the way judges interpret the constitution? should the bible not change as our view of history and humanity change, as does the Constitution?

removing the devine from Jesus, to me, makes the message that much more powerful. forget shock and awe from above; give me a heart pumping human blood and a mind wracked with doubt and uncertainty, show me the two working in tandem to make a better world.

 

[pax]

If we can salvage this thread at all, can we try to keep with what Dread intended, and the naysayers are free to open their own thread(s)?

 

[thacraic]

Here is what Dread expected. Dread expected people who could NOT respect the nature of the question to not bother responding. There are plenty of threads that I do not respond to, because I find that I cannot without causing a little fuss. Apparently people cannot do that, they lack the self-control, or the ability to allow others to have a different point of view. Which is amusing since the name of the forum is Free Your Mind....

Considering the fact that in general most people in this Forum are respectful of the threads intent....and when they are called on something, stop....I did expect a decent discussion. My thanks to those who can handle discusssions without causing there to be an off topic debate.

How hard is it to start your own thread on why the divinity is essential to you? Why clutter this one with the same old same old?

You know what? I was going to say all these polite things and apologize for not staying on topic, I deleted all of that because that is bollox. It is on topic. If you or anyone else can not see that then ask yourself why.

You are essentially asking for certain people not to stand up for the truth. So bollox to that. Any Christian that believes Jesus is God is not going to just stand by as people look at Him as something other than He isn't. I have to think we are PROMPTED not to! And this is not out of tradition, not out of what we learned in Sunday School when we were 8 years old, but its out of our experiencal knowledge of God that comes from having a personal relationship with Him. It would be like just standing by silently like a prat while someone is saying something about your friend that just flat out isn't true. Sorry I am going to speak up. If that shows I don't have self control, then yeh! you are right, in that respect I certainly don't and am glad for that.

You don't really want the truth about the message of Christ. To start out by even suggesting He is not divine is evident of that. When you get down to it, it can not be done. If you want to talk about great philosiphers fine, but I would suggest leaving Jesus out of it because He is much more than that.

So say I have no self control, infer I do not allow others to have point a view ( I am not the one requesting only certain people respond in a certain way) whatever you want to do. Call me a naysayer. I really don't care at this point.

I am just sick of this attitude towards Christ and Christianity (yes the traditional, conservative, fundemental beliefs of it or whatever people want to call it) and any oppurtunity I have to speak out against it I will seize.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

It's just a hypothetical discussion, people. Just a "what if" thing of sorts. I don't think anyone's expecting those of you who think Jesus is divine to automatically change your beliefs about him or anything like that. No, this is just a thread for people to try to imagine him differently and see if his message would still ring true and all that stuff. As stated in this thread, we can also certainly have a thread in which people who don't think Jesus is divine can imagine him as such for a moment and see if his message still rings true there, too. I highly doubt this thread was started to offend anyone.

Angela

 

[thacraic]

If we can salvage this thread at all, can we try to keep with what Dread intended, and the naysayers are free to open their own thread(s)?

I really don't see it as fair to try and silence a group of people or a person in this forum ( it may be 2 people it may be 20 it may be just me) when they are commenting on something that is directly related to the thread topic. I can't tell you how many threads I have been in that have branched off into a million directions due to a strawman and/or an ad hominem apporach to debating and nothing is ever said about it. So it suprises me when something that it is right in line with what is being discussed (when you get down to the brass tacks of it) is said to be off the topic or furthermore could potentially cause the thread to be closed.

How is it naysaying to offer up a view that is contrary to the initial one brought up in the post anyway?

 

[deep]

dread, no need to reply to thacraic, regular posters know you are a legit Christian

So let's be Thomas jefferson for a minute. Eliminate the divinity of Jesus, and make our own Bible. What do you feel the message of the man is?

here is "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth" Thomas Jefferson, it is about 30 pages.

When I get to my office tomorrow, I will print it and read it.

 

[melon]

I am just sick of this attitude towards Christ and Christianity (yes the traditional, conservative, fundemental beliefs of it or whatever people want to call it) and any oppurtunity I have to speak out against it I will seize.

Likewise. I'm sick of traditional, conservative, fundamentalist "Christians" monopolizing on the nature of Jesus Christ, and (either implicitly or explicitly) condemning more "liberal Christians" as either "picking or choosing," being "relativist," or just downright being "non-believers" who need to be "born again."

Likewise, I don't think you don't really want the truth about the message of Christ. You're just interested in maintaining your "traditions." Well, guess what? Any opportunity I have to speak out against it, I will seize.

Melon

 

[thacraic]

Likewise. I'm sick of traditional, conservative, fundamentalist "Christians" monopolizing on the nature of Jesus Christ, and (either implicitly or explicitly) condemning more "liberal Christians" as either "picking or choosing," being "relativist," or just downright being "non-believers" who need to be "born again."

Likewise, I don't think you don't really want the truth about the message of Christ. You're just interested in maintaining your "traditions." Well, guess what? Any opportunity I have to speak out against it, I will seize.

Melon

Maybe you shouldn't have left this part of my post out

And this is not out of tradition, not out of what we learned in Sunday School when we were 8 years old, but its out of our experiencal knowledge of God that comes from having a personal relationship with Him.

But then if you did it wouldnt really gel with your comment about my "maintaining my 'traditions' " so it is understandable.

 

[melon]

But then if you did it wouldnt really gel with your comment about my "maintaining my 'traditions' " so it is understandable.

If "conservative Christianity" was really about a "personal relationship with God," then I don't understand their zeal to legislate their "personal relationship" onto others who disagree. Frankly, actions speak louder than words. As far as I'm concerned, it's empty rhetoric.

But that's besides the point. I'm not going to comment on your personal beliefs, because I don't know you. I'm disappointed that this thread became what it did, and this always seems to be the trend:

1) Dreadsox tries to make people think about religion outside of orthodoxy.

2) Conservative Christians come in, refuse to entertain anything outside rigid orthodoxy, and then ruin the thread for the rest of us.

I shouldn't be surprised. This happened with his marriage thread, as well. If you didn't like this thread, you could have either ignored it or started a thread on Jesus' "divine" characteristics. This thread is about Jesus' "human" characteristics. If Jesus is 100% divine and 100% human, according to orthodox beliefs, then it is worth debating as to what made Jesus "human."

Melon

 

[deep]

If you want to talk about great philosiphers fine, but I would suggest leaving Jesus out of it because He is much more than that.

The question was posed by the moderator at an early Republican presidential debate in 1999: "Who is your favorite political philosopher?" George W. Bush declared, "Jesus Christ, because he changed my life."

 

[BVS]

You know what? I was going to say all these polite things and apologize for not staying on topic, I deleted all of that because that is bollox. It is on topic. If you or anyone else can not see that then ask yourself why.

You are essentially asking for certain people not to stand up for the truth. So bollox to that. Any Christian that believes Jesus is God is not going to just stand by as people look at Him as something other than He isn't. I have to think we are PROMPTED not to! And this is not out of tradition, not out of what we learned in Sunday School when we were 8 years old, but its out of our experiencal knowledge of God that comes from having a personal relationship with Him. It would be like just standing by silently like a prat while someone is saying something about your friend that just flat out isn't true. Sorry I am going to speak up. If that shows I don't have self control, then yeh! you are right, in that respect I certainly don't and am glad for that.

You don't really want the truth about the message of Christ. To start out by even suggesting He is not divine is evident of that. When you get down to it, it can not be done. If you want to talk about great philosiphers fine, but I would suggest leaving Jesus out of it because He is much more than that.

So say I have no self control, infer I do not allow others to have point a view ( I am not the one requesting only certain people respond in a certain way) whatever you want to do. Call me a naysayer. I really don't care at this point.

I am just sick of this attitude towards Christ and Christianity (yes the traditional, conservative, fundemental beliefs of it or whatever people want to call it) and any oppurtunity I have to speak out against it I will seize.

Wow, did you get this offended as a child when you were asked to use your imagination or play "what if" games?

 

[Dreadsox]

It's just a hypothetical discussion, people. Just a "what if" thing of sorts. I don't think anyone's expecting those of you who think Jesus is divine to automatically change your beliefs about him or anything like that. No, this is just a thread for people to try to imagine him differently and see if his message would still ring true and all that stuff. As stated in this thread, we can also certainly have a thread in which people who don't think Jesus is divine can imagine him as such for a moment and see if his message still rings true there, too. I highly doubt this thread was started to offend anyone.

Angela

thank you Angela........

I appreciate your post. You put into words EXACTLY how I feel about it. It saddens me to no end, that people cannot help themselves but to turn everything into a you are wrong I am right kind of a situation. If you do not like the topic, or cannot stick to the basic premise of the thread, no one forced you to type in the thread.

 

[Dreadsox]

PAX

If you are there, please DO NOT close it.....

U2Bama sent me an email promising to post in here.....It has been so long since he posted, I cannot wait to see him bitch slap me.....hehe

 

[pax]

LOL, how did you know I'd be looking in on it?

I'll leave it open...for now.

Thacraic, I think everyone is right...this is meant to be a "what-if" sort of thread, nothing more. No need to take offense. I know it wasn't meant that way, as Dread is a very thoughtful and devout person.

 

[nbcrusader]

Come on folks. This is FYM. Practically every thread strays from the original topic.

It seems unreasonable to start a thread with a fairly open-ended question and expect only certain responses.

If someone started the "Tell me why non-Christians go to hell" thread, my guess is that the majority of responses would be why the statement made in the title of the thread was wrong.

Perhaps if the thread was focused on some of the statements of Jefferson, we would stay "on track"

 

[Dreadsox]

removing the devine from Jesus, to me, makes the message that much more powerful. forget shock and awe from above; give me a heart pumping human blood and a mind wracked with doubt and uncertainty, show me the two working in tandem to make a better world.

What part of his message is stronger without the divinity?

 

[nbcrusader]

double post

 

[nbcrusader]

triple post

 

[Dreadsox]

[Q]So let's be Thomas jefferson for a minute. Eliminate the divinity of Jesus, and make our own Bible. What do you feel the message of the man is?[/Q]

What the heck is ambiguous about ELIMINATE the Divinity?

 

[pax]

No one is saying the thread can't wander, NB...what we're saying is that I think a couple of people have taken the hypothetical nature a bit to heart, and that there's really no need to. That's all.

 

[Irvine511]

What part of his message is stronger without the divinity?

i'm hardly a biblical scholar, but from what i remember from sunday school and some church attendence, the whole Golden Rule idea -- loving enemies, turning the other cheek, doing unto others, etc.

to me, that's more powerful coming from one human to another, than from the idea of a parental God. if man can find it in himself and, through rationality not divine intervention, understand that these rules are essentially what might save us from destroying each other, then that, to me, is immeasurably more powerful than "oh, God has something else he wants me to tell you."

perhaps Jesus, God living as man, understood better the plight of man, and modified his teachings, or learned more about the experience of being human. maybe this is why Jesus appears -- again, to me, i'm not a scholar, but i'm not totally unfamiliar with Christianity -- to be so much less judgemental, so much less fire-and-brimstone than the God of the old testament.

maybe God did walk a mile in our shoes. and it changed things.

i dunno. just thinking out loud.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

thank you Angela........

I appreciate your post. You put into words EXACTLY how I feel about it.

You're welcome, and it's no problem at all .

Angela

 

[U2Bama]

If I eliminate the Divinity, then I describe Jesus as follows:

A controversial rabbi who challenged the Pharisees (those of His time who emphasized the law, such as the "Judge Roy Moore" and Alan Keyes types of today),

but who also challenged the Saducees of His time (those who did not believe in The Ressurection, such as today's Bishop John Shelby Spong or Thomas Jefferson of 200 years ago).

Those were issues of controversy 2000 years ago and 200 years ago, just as they are today and tomorrow.

~U2Alabama

 

[BVS]

Nice post.

 

[Dreadsox]

If I eliminate the Divinity, then I describe Jesus as follows:

A controversial rabbi who challenged the Pharisees (those of His time who emphasized the law, such as the "Judge Roy Moore" and Alan Keyes types of today),

but who also challenged the Saducees of His time (those who did not believe in The Ressurection, such as today's Bishop John Shelby Spong or Thomas Jefferson of 200 years ago).

Those were issues of controversy 2000 years ago and 200 years ago, just as they are today and tomorrow.

~U2Alabama

Dang...that was not a bitch slap.....

That was the voice of a long lost friend.....

Peace my friend.

 

[Dreadsox]

I would say this to you then.....


It was his words that challenged both sides.......

 

[Dreadsox]

to me, that's more powerful coming from one human to another, than from the idea of a parental God. if man can find it in himself and, through rationality not divine intervention, understand that these rules are essentially what might save us from destroying each other, then that, to me, is immeasurably more powerful than "oh, God has something else he wants me to tell you."

I remember being a horny youth....oh so long ago...I said to my minister, Don, if Jesus went through this it means more to me that he was not divine, because I think that would give hom the edge in battling the lustful desires of my youth.

 

[Irvine511]

I remember being a horny youth....oh so long ago...I said to my minister, Don, if Jesus went through this it means more to me that he was not divine, because I think that would give hom the edge in battling the lustful desires of my youth.

that's exactly what i'm talking about.

this is almost why, when it comes to Christ, i feel the divinity is incidental to the man.

a belief in God -- in the eternal soul -- is a much bigger deal, much more consequential in the grand, eternal, universe of things. what we can learn from Christ can be measured in human behavior, so why does killing each other over the divinity of the messanger make any difference?

 

[thacraic]

If "conservative Christianity" was really about a "personal relationship with God," then I don't understand their zeal to legislate their "personal relationship" onto others who disagree. Frankly, actions speak louder than words. As far as I'm concerned, it's empty rhetoric.

But that's besides the point. I'm not going to comment on your personal beliefs, because I don't know you. I'm disappointed that this thread became what it did, and this always seems to be the trend:

1) Dreadsox tries to make people think about religion outside of orthodoxy.

2) Conservative Christians come in, refuse to entertain anything outside rigid orthodoxy, and then ruin the thread for the rest of us.

I shouldn't be surprised. This happened with his marriage thread, as well. If you didn't like this thread, you could have either ignored it or started a thread on Jesus' "divine" characteristics. This thread is about Jesus' "human" characteristics. If Jesus is 100% divine and 100% human, according to orthodox beliefs, then it is worth debating as to what made Jesus "human."

Melon

I don't think the zeal is over what others believe or don't believe. The zeal comes from knowing Him personally which results in getting irritated when people want to change who He is to fit their neat little tidy view of what they think He is about.

Christianity is outside of religous orthodoxy. I don't see your point in 1. And I take it what you mean by 2 is Conservative Christians come in and say wait a minute, hold on, that isn't right slow down here. That doesn't make any sense in relation to what Scripture says. God forbid someone try to use Scripture. Once they do that they are "holier than thou" or "making other Christians look bad". Whatfrigginever.

And of course it would happen on that marriage thread. I saw that but I chose not to even bother with it because I knew I would not be able to keep my mouth shut in relation to what the Bible says. This thread on the other hand is not about a certain biblical teaching this thread is about Jesus and that is when the gloves come off.

What I am getting here is this. On certain threads Conservative Christians should just keep out of it because this is Free Your Mind and if you don't have something to say that is radical or progressive you just need to shut yo mouth and sit down or go start your own damn thread. I mean how can your mind possibly be free if you are embracing a fundemental view of Christianity? Wake up! Its the 21st century you have to change things to accomodate YOU and the SOCIETY in which you live! Bollox.

I can't think of anything MORE radical than the Bible. What God would have us do is contrary to everything human nature is about. Your comments on Jesus being 100% human are not accurate. While here on earth He was 100% physically a human being. He grew tired, he grew hungry, thristy etc, but His nature was not human in any way, it was 100% divine. His message did not come from His human need of food or water it came from His divine nature and that is what makes Him so unique. That is what also makes it impossible to seperate the divinity from the man in order to see His message. It can not be done if one wishes to embrace what Jesus taught wholly and completely.

As far as ignoring it well if I did that, it would go against who I am. I speak my mind when I feel the need to. If you don't like it there is little I can do to accomodate you.

 

[thacraic]

Wow, did you get this offended as a child when you were asked to use your imagination or play "what if" games?

Well it isn't exactly the same as saying what if the sky were purple.