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Old 02-13-2005, 03:24 PM   #16
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
NB, no offense, start a thread about the divinity then. I asked for a simple discussion based on the kind of thing Thomas Jefferson did. I recognize this may not be what you believe, but the last thing I wanted was a debate about the divinity of Christ. While this is essential to being a Christian in todays world, it is also a major road block when trying to have a discussion about the messasge.
I understand. I think my original post addressed your question if I viewed Jesus the man.
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Old 02-13-2005, 05:42 PM   #17
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
NB, no offense, start a thread about the divinity then. I asked for a simple discussion based on the kind of thing Thomas Jefferson did. I recognize this may not be what you believe, but the last thing I wanted was a debate about the divinity of Christ. While this is essential to being a Christian in todays world, it is also a major road block when trying to have a discussion about the messasge.
The message of what, "repent for the kingdom of heaven is near." ?

Edited to add... so much for my giving up debating in online forums!
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Old 02-13-2005, 06:48 PM   #18
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So much for my hope that people could discuss things in the spirit of the Jefferson Bible.

As far as I knew I was not starting a debate.
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Old 02-13-2005, 08:47 PM   #19
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
So much for my hope that people could discuss things in the spirit of the Jefferson Bible.

As far as I knew I was not starting a debate.
Well what did you think would happen? You ask a question about eliminating the divinity of Jesus like Thomas Jefferson did but you didn't expect some people to raise an eyebrow?

Considering Jefferson cut out parts of the New Testament in which Jesus Himself spoke a message of His own divinity shows that Jefferson did not want to accept the entire message of Christ. Jefferson created a view which suited him. That first off was not the message of Jesus. The picking and chosing of a way that suits our individual lifestyles and whims is not what I would call a central concept of Jesus' ministry.

Anyway, if you have someone that views Jesus as God they don't have the capacity to look past His divinity. You are asking them to do something which is intrinsically impossible. To those that do not see Him as divine they will just say what they always do... "He was a revolutionary thinker and if only we could embrace what He "really" taught then the world would be such a great place."
I don't see how this question would elicit any replies that would be different from what is usually said. The traditional Christians on one side getting pissed off at the mere thought of even viewing Christ as anything less than divine. (How could some of us get past that to even contemplate the rest of it?) Then on the other side you have everyone else going on about how lovey dovey His message was.

I also don't see how you couldn't see this as a hot-button issue. The word "Jesus" alone is controversial. But if you say that you honestly didn't think it would lead to a debate I believe you.

OK for the sake of discourse lets say Jesus was not divine. The first words which came from His lips at the onset of His ministry were "Repent for the kingdom of heaven is near", everything else that followed only expounded on the initial concept. So that was Jesus' message, divinely stated or otherwise.
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Old 02-13-2005, 10:13 PM   #20
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I suppose this Jesus fellow would run a pretty good 8th grade wood shop class

db9
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Old 02-13-2005, 10:35 PM   #21
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Nelson: Hey Simpson, I hear your sister dumped Christianity!
Bart: Who cares?
Dolph: I'll tell you someone who cares. He's got long hair, works as a carpenter, has a lot of crazy ideas about love and brotherhood!
Jimbo: His name's Gunther and he's dating my mom. Sometimes he buys us beer.
Bart: I thought Kearney was dating your mom.
Kearney: Hey, she came on to me.
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Old 02-14-2005, 07:02 AM   #22
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As a side note, the argument over "divinity" versus "humanity" is as old as Christianity itself. More "liberal" Christians emphasized the humanity, while "conservative" Christians emphasized the divinity.

According to the doctrine of the time, both are incorrect or both are correct, depending on how you look at it. Jesus is 100% divine and 100% human. Thus, I think it's perfectly appropriate to talk about Jesus' humanity, as he is 100% human, in addition to his divinity.

Secondly, it is a relevant question, as Islam sees Jesus as an important prophet, but not divine. So what should Muslims find relevant about Jesus' message as a prophet and not a "God"?

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Old 02-14-2005, 07:49 AM   #23
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Originally posted by melon
As a side note, the argument over "divinity" versus "humanity" is as old as Christianity itself. More "liberal" Christians emphasized the humanity, while "conservative" Christians emphasized the divinity.

According to the doctrine of the time, both are incorrect or both are correct, depending on how you look at it. Jesus is 100% divine and 100% human. Thus, I think it's perfectly appropriate to talk about Jesus' humanity, as he is 100% human, in addition to his divinity.

Secondly, it is a relevant question, as Islam sees Jesus as an important prophet, but not divine. So what should Muslims find relevant about Jesus' message as a prophet and not a "God"?

Melon
To address your sidenote. This thread was not started to debate the divinity of Christ but it naturally turned into that.

I am not talking about what is or is not appropriate. I am saying that posing a question that starts out with "eliminate the divinity...." will naturally garner responses that pertain to Christ's divinity. Again, debating the divinity of Christ was not what this thread was intended as Dread said. I do see where he is coming from on that. I just don't see how he thought it would actually happen, considering the views of some people who post here in FYM.

In terms of followers of Islam. I wouldn't think they would find anything about Jesus' message to be any more relevant than that of say Moses. But that is what happens when you eliminate the divinity of Christ. You reduce His message to that of only a man who held a "good vibrations" approach to spirituality and faith.
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Old 02-14-2005, 07:59 AM   #24
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Originally posted by thacraic


I don't see how this question would elicit any replies that would be different from what is usually said. The traditional Christians on one side getting pissed off at the mere thought of even viewing Christ as anything less than divine. (How could some of us get past that to even contemplate the rest of it?) Then on the other side you have everyone else going on about how lovey dovey His message was.

I also don't see how you couldn't see this as a hot-button issue. The word "Jesus" alone is controversial. But if you say that you honestly didn't think it would lead to a debate I believe you.

"Traditional Christians getting pissed off at the mere thought of even viewing Christ as anything less than divine."

In that case I suggest they expand their horizons. I suggest to you that non-Christians have a right to be just as pissed off at the mere thought of suggesting that Christ may have been divine.
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Old 02-14-2005, 08:09 AM   #25
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Originally posted by thacraic
You reduce His message to that of only a man who held a "good vibrations" approach to spirituality and faith.
So "Divine Jesus" is a hateful tyrant, while "Human Jesus" said to "Love one another"?

I think this is less about Jesus' divinity than with connotations. Talking about "love" and "humanity" is "hippie liberal talk." "Divine Jesus" is still the same guy who said "Love one another."

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Old 02-14-2005, 08:10 AM   #26
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Originally posted by financeguy


"Traditional Christians getting pissed off at the mere thought of even viewing Christ as anything less than divine."

In that case I suggest they expand their horizons. I suggest to you that non-Christians have a right to be just as pissed off at the mere thought of suggesting that Christ may have been divine.
Yes and that is to be expected. That is the point I am making with my post. The entire premise is going to lead into this sort of discussion of divinity, while the message of Christ is going to be tossed to the side.

Strawman anyway. Take a small snipet of what is said (out of context no less) and try to make it appear as something it isn't. Then try to debate the statement as though that was the crux of the entire post.

That is one thing I am trying to learn to overlook. It is just difficult and frustrating at times.
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Old 02-14-2005, 08:11 AM   #27
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Originally posted by melon


So "Divine Jesus" is a hateful tyrant, while "Human Jesus" said to "Love one another"?

I think this is less about Jesus' divinity than with connotations. Talking about "love" and "humanity" is "hippie liberal talk." "Divine Jesus" is still the same guy who said "Love one another."

Melon
The only people who say Divine Jesus is a hateful tyrant are those that focus on the Human Jesus.

Edited to add: That didn't make any sense in the way I phrased that.

What I mean is that I kinda sense that people who focus only on His message of love tend to think that if you view Him any other way, it would be believing in tyrant. Those of us who look at His message of repentence or look at His saying we should be obedient to God are maybe thought to be believing in something that He didn't really teach. That the ulitmate message is love love love and nothing else but. That is what I meant.
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Old 02-14-2005, 08:22 AM   #28
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Nevermind.
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Old 02-14-2005, 08:26 AM   #29
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Nevermind.
OK but I did edit my response because I realized after the fact it was just out ridiculous in the manner it was stated.
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Old 02-14-2005, 09:18 AM   #30
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To address your sidenote. This thread was not started to debate the divinity of Christ but it naturally turned into that.

I am not talking about what is or is not appropriate. I am saying that posing a question that starts out with "eliminate the divinity...." will naturally garner responses that pertain to Christ's divinity. Again, debating the divinity of Christ was not what this thread was intended as Dread said. I do see where he is coming from on that. I just don't see how he thought it would actually happen, considering the views of some people who post here in FYM.

In terms of followers of Islam. I wouldn't think they would find anything about Jesus' message to be any more relevant than that of say Moses. But that is what happens when you eliminate the divinity of Christ. You reduce His message to that of only a man who held a "good vibrations" approach to spirituality and faith.
Here is what Dread expected. Dread expected people who could NOT respect the nature of the question to not bother responding. There are plenty of threads that I do not respond to, because I find that I cannot without causing a little fuss. Apparently people cannot do that, they lack the self-control, or the ability to allow others to have a different point of view. Which is amusing since the name of the forum is Free Your Mind....

Considering the fact that in general most people in this Forum are respectful of the threads intent....and when they are called on something, stop....I did expect a decent discussion. My thanks to those who can handle discusssions without causing there to be an off topic debate.

How hard is it to start your own thread on why the divinity is essential to you? Why clutter this one with the same old same old?
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