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Old 01-11-2007, 05:59 AM   #16
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Socialism/Communism is a dream lead by the strong and blind belief in the good of the people.

Socialism/Communism will always fail once set into practice.

Hoping for socialism in one country is just ignoring the fact, that this will lead to a dictatorship killing people, taking all their possessions and taking their entire freedom.

It's a theory, not more!
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Old 01-11-2007, 08:47 AM   #17
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I have nothing agaisnt socialism, The governor of my state says he is a socialist and is excelent, he was the contender agaisnt Chavez in the past elections, but the problem is Chavez is more a dictator than a socialist, he is sick with power and those who are opposition (like me) are in a very bad situation here.


If socialism will take a step in the world, I hope isn´t in the hands of Chavez because he is a mad killer, he is nuts like you say, you don´t know how bad are the things here, we can´t even find something so basic as sugar and he will ask the indefinetly reelection---> that means he will be Like fidel castro a mad dictator
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Old 01-11-2007, 08:49 AM   #18
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I must say that asking for a mandate to rule by decree and to start programs to get opponents to go out and teach the virtues of Chavezism seems a tad megalomanical.
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Old 01-11-2007, 09:36 AM   #19
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Originally posted by Caroni
Please don´t believe ibn the results of that election, Venezuelans are smarer than that
Actually, I do tend to believe the results of that election, and it's because of this:

Quote:
Infant mortality in Venezuela stands at 21.54 deaths per 1,000 births, eight times higher than in Sweden. Child malnutrition (defined as stunting or wasting in children under age five) stands at 17%; Delta Amacuro and Amazonas have the nation's highest rates. According to the United Nations, 32% of Venezuelans lacked adequate sanitation, with rural areas being the most undersupplied. Diseases ranging from typhoid, yellow fever, cholera, hepatitis A, hepatitis B, and hepatitis D are present in the country. Only 3% of sewage is treated; most major cities lack treatment facilities. Almost 20% of Venezuelans lack access to potable water, one of the highest rates in South America. As of 1999, around 110,000 Venezuelans had HIV.

...

Despite the significant oil wealth, 47% of the population live in poverty; as of 2006, the unemployment rate was 12.2%.
Chavez has been pandering to this demographic, and as long as he caters to the poor in Venezuela, I believe that he will continue to have genuine popular support, socialist dictator or otherwise.

But I do agree that Chavez has become troublesome. He is starting to remind me of some of the world leaders of the 1950s that the U.S. targeted for removal during the Cold War.
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Old 01-11-2007, 11:19 AM   #20
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Hi Caroni! I just wanna say I've been reading this thread, trying to brush up on Venezuelan politics, because it is an area where I'm rather ignorant. But it is really great reading your posts, being a citizen of that nation. I like reading your perspective. Please continue to share your reflections here! They, along with the articles posted, really help me to better understand.
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Old 01-11-2007, 04:25 PM   #21
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Originally posted by Ormus



Actually, I do tend to believe the results of that election, and it's because of this:



Chavez has been pandering to this demographic, and as long as he caters to the poor in Venezuela, I believe that he will continue to have genuine popular support, socialist dictator or otherwise.

But I do agree that Chavez has become troublesome. He is starting to remind me of some of the world leaders of the 1950s that the U.S. targeted for removal during the Cold War.



Let me explain why I do not believe those results:


The power that has the control of elections (CNE) is on his hands and the electoral registration is very corrupted, they give ID`s to foreign people that doesn´t have ten years living in this country (requisite to be a nationalized Venezuelan) and can´t even speak spanish, he even gives ID`s to guerrila people, one person can have more than one ID because we have proved that. In this past election the paint that serves as the indicator of voting was "washable" so, if you have 3 ID´s you just go and vote 3 times.


One example: I have a nationalized friend that doesn´t have her ID (wich is a requisite to be in the electoral registration) and when we checked in the CNE web, she was registered and that only can be made by her, and she never did it


Opposition accepted that Chavez won but not with 7 million votes, somehow he has to accept that half country is against him.




Other facts:


Chavez is giving money and services like food and education (not education but a kind of castro-comunist brain wash) to the people that really needs them, in one hand that is good, but this just make them depend of the goverment, in other hand, if the oil prices diminish too much, he won´t be capable to support those expenses creating a crisis. "Poor people" support Chavez just because he gives them money.


The worst thing is the repression against those that doesn´t support him, we can´t even expect a place in a public charge because we are in a kind of "black list"; it´s OK help the poor, what is not OK is squash middle class

I have figted all that I can with my feets hands and votes, I have cried with "tear gas tears" and I have seen how my parents dreams were unfairly destroyed by them, please don´t tell me a socialism/comunism is good untill you lived in the opposition side of it


I have so many things to say that I can write a book.



And BTW: Mara is the poorest municipality of my country....and Chavez lost the elctions there, mainly because our governor (Chavez contender) is too good and he really is a good democratic socialist, sadly people couldn´t see that


I hope we can awake from this nigthmare someday



Quote:
Originally posted by redhotswami
Hi Caroni! I just wanna say I've been reading this thread, trying to brush up on Venezuelan politics, because it is an area where I'm rather ignorant. But it is really great reading your posts, being a citizen of that nation. I like reading your perspective. Please continue to share your reflections here! They, along with the articles posted, really help me to better understand.

Thank you RHS I don´t know why latinamerica suffers so much in hands of dictators, I think is because we like to see mesiahs everywere
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Old 01-11-2007, 05:23 PM   #22
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Some Europeans like Chavez because he gives George Bush a pain in the ass, and to them anyone who gives Bush a pain is good. By the same token, he's not a fan of the state of Israel and is widely alleged to be anti-Semitic.
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Old 01-11-2007, 09:09 PM   #23
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Originally posted by CTU2fan
My hope is that while US imperialism is focused on places like the Middle East socialism can quietly gain a foothold around the world.

I suspect that you are correct (unfortunately).
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Old 01-11-2007, 09:30 PM   #24
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That said, I think it is entirely understandable, given the history of far right oppression and US assisted state terrorism in some South American countries, that the poor will seek salvation in a Marxist Messiah.

Abuses of the free market system will always lead to blowback - reasonable conservatives, like myself, can see that, but we are living in the age of 'you're either with us or against us' (TM) brought to you courtesy of Buschco and their historical forerunners.
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Old 01-11-2007, 10:08 PM   #25
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Originally posted by CTU2fan
If he really is a socialist/communist then he is for the poor people. Of course many alleged socialists change their tune once in power.
Chavez will be for the poor until he has built a sufficient personality cult to cement his power completely. Then he'll ensure that the remaining population will join the poor, while giving the military and his cronies a good life.

Quote:
My hope is that while US imperialism is focused on places like the Middle East socialism can quietly gain a foothold around the world.
Well, when Bush stopped caring what the world thought of him, the rest of the world stopped caring of what Bush thought of them.
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Old 01-12-2007, 07:54 PM   #26
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^

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Old 01-14-2007, 11:13 AM   #27
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Originally posted by Ormus
Well, when Bush stopped caring what the world thought of him, the rest of the world stopped caring of what Bush thought of them.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americ....ap/index.html

Quote:
Venezuela, Iran to finance opposition to U.S.

CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) -- Venezuela's Hugo Chavez and Iran's Mahmoud Ahmadinejad -- fiery anti-American leaders whose moves to extend their influence have alarmed Washington -- said Saturday they would help finance investment projects in other countries seeking to thwart U.S. domination.

The two countries had previously revealed plans for a joint $2 billion fund to finance investments in Venezuela and Iran, but the leaders said Saturday the money would also be used for projects in friendly countries throughout the developing world.

"It will permit us to underpin investments ... above all in those countries whose governments are making efforts to liberate themselves from the [U.S.] imperialist yoke," Chavez said.

"This fund, my brother," the Venezuelan president said, referring affectionately to Ahmadinejad, "will become a mechanism for liberation."

"Death to U.S. imperialism!" Chavez said.

Ahmadinejad, who is starting a tour of left-leaning countries in the region, called it a "very important" decision that would help promote "joint cooperation in third countries," especially in Latin America and Africa.

Iran and Venezuela are members of the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries, and Chavez said Saturday that they had agreed to back a further oil production cut in the cartel to stem a recent fall in crude prices.

"We know today there is too much crude in the market," Chavez said. "We have agreed to join our forces within OPEC ... to support a production cut and save the price of oil."

OPEC reduced output by 1.2 million barrels a day in November, then announced an additional cut of 500,000 barrels a day, due to begin on February 1. Dow Jones Newswires reported Friday that OPEC is discussing holding an emergency meeting later this month to reduce output by another 500,000 barrels a day. Venezuela and Iran have been leading price hawks within OPEC.

Ahmadinejad's visit Saturday -- his second to Venezuela in less than four months -- comes as he seeks to break international isolation over his country's nuclear program and possibly line up new allies in Latin America. He is also expected to visit Nicaragua and Ecuador, which both recently elected leftist governments.
Increasingly united

Chavez and Ahmadinejad have been increasingly united by their deep-seated antagonism toward the Bush administration. Chavez has become a leading defender of Iran's nuclear ambitions, accusing the Washington of using the issue as a pretext to attack Tehran.

Ahmadinejad, meanwhile, has called Chavez "the champion of the struggle against imperialism."

U.S. officials have accused Chavez -- a close ally of Cuban leader Fidel Castro -- of authoritarian tendencies, and National Intelligence Director John Negroponte said recently in an annual review of global threats that Venezuela's democracy was at risk.

The U.S. also believes Iran is seeking to use its nuclear program to develop an atomic bomb. Tehran says its program is peaceful and geared toward the production of energy.

The increasingly close relationship between Chavez and Ahmadinejad has alarmed some Chavez critics, who accuse him of pursuing an alliance that does not serve Venezuela's interests and jeopardizes its ties with the United States, the country's top oil buyer. Venezuela is among the top five suppliers of crude to the U.S. market.

In a speech earlier Saturday, Chavez called for the U.S. government to accept "the new realities of Latin America," as he brushed aside restrictions that limit presidents to two consecutive terms. He vowed to stay in office beyond 2013, when his term expires, saying he would revise the constitution to get rid of presidential term limits.

But Chavez also said in his state of the nation address to government officials and legislators that he had personally expressed hope to a high-ranking U.S. official for better relations between their two countries.

Chavez said he spoke with Thomas Shannon, head of the U.S. State Department's Western Hemisphere affairs bureau, on the sidelines of Nicaraguan President Daniel Ortega's inauguration earlier this week.

"We shook hands and I told him: 'I hope that everything improves,"' Chavez said. "I'm not anyone's enemy."

Chavez prompted a crash in Venezuelan share prices this past week when he announced he would seek special powers from the legislature to push through "revolutionary" reforms, including a string of nationalizations and unspecified changes to business laws and the commerce code.

He also announced plans for the state to take control of the country's largest telecommunications company, its electricity and natural gas sectors and four heavy crude upgrading projects now controlled by some of the world's top oil companies.

He said Saturday, however, that private companies would be allowed to own minority stakes in the lucrative Orinoco River basin oil projects.

The government has already taken majority ownership of all other oil-producing operations in the country through joint ventures controlled by the state oil company. Most companies have shown a willingness to continue investing despite the tightening terms, which have also included tax and royalty increases.
And guess who will be indirectly funding this? The U.S., through its consumption of oil. I'm surprised that nobody has really seriously bothered to frame a shift to alternative fuels in a national security argument. The sooner that the Western world can shift to pure ethanol or hydrogen fuel, the sooner we can bankrupt these lunatics.
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Old 01-14-2007, 02:09 PM   #28
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They have already
Quote:
Neocons who drive Priuses

President Bush has a simple policy about energy: produce more of it. The former oilman has packed his administration with veterans of the oil and coal industries. And for most of the first Bush term, his energy policy and his foreign policy were joined at the hip. Since the Bush administration believed that controlling the flow of oil from the Persian Gulf was critically important to the American economy, the invasion of Iraq seemed to serve both the president's energy goals and his foreign policy ones.

But a curious transformation is occurring in Washington, D.C., a split of foreign policy and energy policy: Many of the leading neoconservatives who pushed hard for the Iraq war are going green. James Woolsey, the former director of the Central Intelligence Agency and staunch backer of the Iraq war, now drives a 58-miles-per-gallon Toyota Prius and has two more hybrid vehicles on order. Frank Gaffney, the president of the Center for Security Policy and another neocon who championed the war, has been speaking regularly in Washington about fuel efficiency and plant-based bio-fuels.

The alliance of hawks and environmentalists is new but not entirely surprising. The environmentalists are worried about global warming and air pollution. But Woolsey and Gaffney—both members of the Project for the New American Century, which began advocating military action against Saddam Hussein back in 1998—are going green for geopolitical reasons, not environmental ones. They seek to reduce the flow of American dollars to oil-rich Islamic theocracies, Saudi Arabia in particular. Petrodollars have made Saudi Arabia too rich a source of terrorist funding and Islamic radicals. Last month, Gaffney told a conference in Washington that America has become dependent on oil that is imported from countries that, "by and large, are hostile to us." This fact, he said, makes reducing oil imports "a national security imperative."

Neocons and greens first hitched up in the fall, when they jointly backed a proposal put forward by the Institute for the Analysis of Global Security, a Washington-based think tank that tracks energy and security issues. (Woolsey is on the IAGS advisory board.) The IAGS plan proposes that the federal government invest $12 billion to: encourage auto makers to build more efficient cars and consumers to buy them; develop industrial facilities to produce plant-based fuels like ethanol; and promote fuel cells for commercial use. The IAGS plan is keen on "plug-in hybrid vehicles," which use internal combustion engines in conjunction with electric motors that are powered by batteries charged by current from standard electric outlets.

The Natural Resources Defense Council and the American Council on Renewable Energy (Woolsey is on the latter's advisory board, too) both endorsed the IAGS plan. The environmental groups, who have been in the weeds ever since George W. Bush moved in at 1600 Pennsylvania, are happy for any help they can get. "It's a wonderful confluence. We agree on the same goals, even if it's for different reasons," says Deron Lovaas, the NRDC's point-man on auto issues.

For Woolsey and Gaffney, the fact that energy efficiency and conservation might help the environment is an unintended side benefit. They want to weaken the Saudis, the Iranians, and the Syrians while also strengthening the Israelis. Whether these ends are achieved with M-16s or hybrid automobiles doesn't seem to matter to them.

They aren't the only Iraq hawks who have joined the cause. The Hudson Institute's Meyrav Wurmser also signed the IAGS plan. In 1996, she was one of the authors—along with Richard Perle and Douglas Feith, of a famous strategy paper for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that called for the overthrow of Saddam Hussein and military assaults against Lebanon and Syria. (Wurmser's married to fellow neocon David Wurmser, an adviser to Dick Cheney, former AEI fellow, and enthusiast for the Iraq war.) Clifford May, the president of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies, endorsed the IAGS scheme, too. And the Committee on the Present Danger is about to join the Prius-and-ethanol crowd, as well. A driving force for America's military buildup since the '50s now reconstituted as an antiterror group, the CPD will issue a paper in the next few months endorsing many elements of the IAGS plan. CPD members include Midge Decter, Jeane Kirkpatrick, Newt Gingrich, and Steve Forbes, as well as Woolsey and Gaffney.

So far, the neocons are the only ones on the right to break with Bush on energy policy. They can do this because opposing the energy policy doesn't cost them anything—either politically or economically. The neocons come mostly out of academia and government so, unlike other conservative Republicans, they have few ties to big business and no significant connections to the energy lobbyists who are so influential with the White House.
http://www.slate.com/id/2112608/

More evidence against the neocon = theocratic reactionary theory.
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Old 01-14-2007, 02:39 PM   #29
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^ Do people really equate them? Cons & theocracy, absolutely...but neocons, not so much.
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Old 01-14-2007, 02:43 PM   #30
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
More evidence against the neocon = theocratic reactionary theory.
Well, as I've come to realize through time, neocons have influence on foreign policy, whereas the theocratic conservatives have influence on domestic policy.
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