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Old 04-06-2003, 07:52 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klaus
senrab / headache:

I guess we're not "just" takling about G.W. Bush and exclude his past?

But still:

Human rights violations like these?

This is better treatment than a bullet between the eyes.
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Old 04-06-2003, 08:57 PM   #32
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no kidding...



and sapphire - very well put.
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Old 04-06-2003, 09:24 PM   #33
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not much better than a bullett between the eyes
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Old 04-06-2003, 10:04 PM   #34
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give me a break.
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Old 04-06-2003, 10:19 PM   #35
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It's Ok, PJ's music sucks now anyway
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Old 04-06-2003, 11:04 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bono's American Wife



This is better treatment than a bullet between the eyes.
Agreed. Also, excellent post, Sapphire.

As far as the treatment of Afghan and Iraqi soldiers, boo-hoo. They fought and are fighting for oppressive regimes that have no regard WHATSOEVER for human life.

*edited because of a typo*
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Old 04-06-2003, 11:44 PM   #37
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I think the point trying to be made by those who protest U.S. human rights violations AS WELL AS those of the Taliban and Hussein regimes is that we as Americans claim to be "better," "above," or "more advanced than" the Taliban or the Fedayeen Saddam. If we want to claim this, then we cannot stand for such flagrant and embarrassing violations of common decency as those that have occurred on Guantanamo Bay. We are not much better than them.

If we REALLY wanted to make a statement about the greatness of the American way, we would convict these terrorists in courts of law just like any others, with the burden of proof on the prosecution and the right of the defendant to legal counsel. If we could convict the accused terrorists in a conventional and fair manner, then I suspect we would have much more international support for the further and more widespread detention of suspected terrorists (if necessary).

But in typical heavy-handed Bush-croft style, we choose to act in whatever way we choose, just 'cause, you know, we can.
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Old 04-07-2003, 12:27 AM   #38
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was
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Old 04-07-2003, 03:56 AM   #39
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Sapphire/Bono's American Wife:

this one was was the direct response to senrab and headache's post that G.W.Bush did nothing to be ashamed of.

If anyone would be crazzy enough to say "Saddam did nothing to be ashamed of" you can be sure that i'd fill several pages to falsify him!

And please... don't make the mistake of comparing Bush to Saddam to justify what he does.
I hope not only me has higher excpectations on the leader of the US than on a dictator who's "famous" for his brutale regime.

Don't you feel bad that your excuse is "but Saddam is even more evil"???

Human Rights are a mayor key of our western values, if we start to ignore them to "defend" our values we didn't defend them but betrayed them.

diamond:
that
does
never
excuse
human
right
violations

I beg everyone to see the violations of human rights and protest against them no matter who violates them.

Klaus
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Old 04-07-2003, 05:23 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by senrab
As far as the treatment of Afghan and Iraqi soldiers, boo-hoo. They fought and are fighting for oppressive regimes that have no regard WHATSOEVER for human life.
Firstly, let's not forget that before the war began we heard a lot about soldiers being conscripted, both in Afghanistan and Iraq. If the soldiers were conscripts then it's not really fair to blame them for the crimes of their regime as they may be fighting for them only because if they refused to fight they would be killed by the Taliban in Afghanistan or Saddam in Iraq.

Also, I can't understand how anyone can dismiss horrible violations of human rights with just "boo-hoo" (I'm not only talking about you, senrab, I know lots of others made similar comments in this thread or in others). Surely if you are against Saddam or the Taliban because they violated their citizens' human rights, then you have to also be against violations of human rights committed by US and UK soldiers. Surely if you are angry when you see US soldiers treated badly by the Iraqis, you also have to be angry when the US treats prisoners badly in Guantanamo Bay? Nobody should be treated badly because of their nationality: if you believe human rights are good enough for US troops then they are good enough for Iraqi troops and they are good enough for Afghan troops.

Please, don't just dehumanise the prisoners in Guantanamo Bay, don't dismiss them because they fought willingly or unwillingly for the Taliban, don't act as though it doesn't matter when they're treated badly. They are people too, try to remember that. Try to remember that they may have family in Afghanistan who don't know where they are or what's happened to them. Try to imagine how families in the US might feel if their son or daughter or mother or father disappeared and they didn't know where they had been taken to. Please remember that soldiers from Afghanistan are just the same as soldiers from the US: they have families and loved ones back home and they don't ever deserve to be treated badly just because of their nationality or crimes they allegedly committed.
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Old 04-07-2003, 08:18 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


Firstly, let's not forget that before the war began we heard a lot about soldiers being conscripted, both in Afghanistan and Iraq. If the soldiers were conscripts then it's not really fair to blame them for the crimes of their regime as they may be fighting for them only because if they refused to fight they would be killed by the Taliban in Afghanistan or Saddam in Iraq.

Also, I can't understand how anyone can dismiss horrible violations of human rights with just "boo-hoo" (I'm not only talking about you, senrab, I know lots of others made similar comments in this thread or in others). Surely if you are against Saddam or the Taliban because they violated their citizens' human rights, then you have to also be against violations of human rights committed by US and UK soldiers. Surely if you are angry when you see US soldiers treated badly by the Iraqis, you also have to be angry when the US treats prisoners badly in Guantanamo Bay? Nobody should be treated badly because of their nationality: if you believe human rights are good enough for US troops then they are good enough for Iraqi troops and they are good enough for Afghan troops.

Please, don't just dehumanise the prisoners in Guantanamo Bay, don't dismiss them because they fought willingly or unwillingly for the Taliban, don't act as though it doesn't matter when they're treated badly. They are people too, try to remember that. Try to remember that they may have family in Afghanistan who don't know where they are or what's happened to them. Try to imagine how families in the US might feel if their son or daughter or mother or father disappeared and they didn't know where they had been taken to. Please remember that soldiers from Afghanistan are just the same as soldiers from the US: they have families and loved ones back home and they don't ever deserve to be treated badly just because of their nationality or crimes they allegedly committed.
Well said.

I find it amazing sometimes how people out there don't seem to grasp the idea that soldiers and civilians in other countries feel the same way we do whenever something bad happens to them-they get scared, they worry about their family and friends, they want to keep themselves safe, too.

They're human, too.

Angela
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Old 04-07-2003, 10:09 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


Firstly, let's not forget that before the war began we heard a lot about soldiers being conscripted, both in Afghanistan and Iraq. If the soldiers were conscripts then it's not really fair to blame them for the crimes of their regime as they may be fighting for them only because if they refused to fight they would be killed by the Taliban in Afghanistan or Saddam in Iraq.
Fair enough.

Quote:
Also, I can't understand how anyone can dismiss horrible violations of human rights with just "boo-hoo" (I'm not only talking about you, senrab, I know lots of others made similar comments in this thread or in others). Surely if you are against Saddam or the Taliban because they violated their citizens' human rights, then you have to also be against violations of human rights committed by US and UK soldiers. Surely if you are angry when you see US soldiers treated badly by the Iraqis, you also have to be angry when the US treats prisoners badly in Guantanamo Bay? Nobody should be treated badly because of their nationality: if you believe human rights are good enough for US troops then they are good enough for Iraqi troops and they are good enough for Afghan troops.
I respectfully disagree. We are treating them in accordance with the Geneva Convention, which is more than one can say for the Iraqi regime (parading POW's on TV, and God knows what else.)
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Old 04-07-2003, 10:55 AM   #43
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personally, I'm offended that pearl jam has one good song on riot act: "thumbing my way"; which is excellent.

everything else is meandering, semi-punk/semi-metal riffs that are as boring as watching turds float.

this coming from a pearl jam fan who was defending them from 1996 when eveyone was saying they sucked.
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Old 04-07-2003, 11:15 AM   #44
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Senrab:

Well the US army declares many POW's as terrorists and therefore they not fall under Geneva Convention they say.

here's what the IRC has to say:
Quote:
A prisoner of war is a combatant, generally a member of the armed forces of a party to an international armed conflict or an individual enjoying equivalent legal status, who has fallen into the hands of an adverse party.

Individuals enjoying equivalent status include war correspondents, supply contractors, merchant marine and civil aircraft crews, and civilians who spontaneously take up arms to resist invading forces (Art. 4, Third Geneva Convention of 1949). In case of doubt, any person who takes part in hostilities is presumed to be a prisoner of war (Art. 45.1, Additional Protocol I of 1977).
So.. before you call them Terrorists and send them to Guantanamo Bay afik you would have to prove that they are terrorists and not "civilians who spontaneously take up arms to resist invading forces"

Lot of neutral organisations said that Guantanamo Bay violates Geneva Convention AND Human rights

Klaus

p.s. Bono's American Wife:


Quote:
Mat 25:40 - 46
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
I'd be curious what he'd say if you would response:
"anwyay, this was a better treatment than a bullet between their eyes."
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Old 04-08-2003, 05:46 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by JOFO
personally, I'm offended that pearl jam has one good song on riot act: "thumbing my way"; which is excellent.
"Thumbing" is terrific, I agree. I also like "I Am Mine". But you're right, the rest of the album is shit...
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