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Old 01-18-2002, 05:11 PM   #31
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Well Jesus did say: Come and i will make you fishers of men.
And anyway, if you dont believe in passing moral judgement on anyone, then once again, we must allow the murder of humans, and every other evil, because who are we to say its wrong???
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Old 01-18-2002, 05:24 PM   #32
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My dear Miss MacPhisto, how convenient it is for you to remember the first part of the sentence and disregard the second; I said that we are NOBODY to pass judgement on anything or anyone concerning food, and what we consume as food, with the obvious exception of cannibalism, which, as explained by earlier posts, is immediately deemed as immoral.

All food is blessed, it was God-given, surely you can believe that much.

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Old 01-18-2002, 05:25 PM   #33
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And what on Earth do you mean with that Jesus quote? So what?! It evidently means, if anything, that we should eat fish... but no doubt you would find it immoral and condem us all to your punishments.

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Old 01-18-2002, 05:27 PM   #34
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"follow me and I will make you fishers of men" is a metaphor that Jesus was employing while calling men who happened to be fishermen to work with him. To take it out of context destroys the meaning.
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Old 01-18-2002, 05:29 PM   #35
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If I may interject here - on a purely scientific level...

Cats and dogs, domesticated or not, do NOT have to eat meat. They, like all living entities, do require protein - but they do NOT have to eat meat to obtain it. There are vegetarian products for our pets that contain more than enough protein. Therefore, to state that these animals *must* eat meat to survive is erroneous.

Likewise, in most of the Western world, humans can easily survive on the proteins obtained from vegetable sources. Therefore, a decision to eat meat is a personal one, much like religion, and it should be respected.

While practices of animal slaughter have dramatically improved over the years, overall, many food-animals are still treated poorly (due to overmilking, cramped conditions or undernourishment). Also, even in the "sacred" U.S., some animals on some "farms" are slaughtered cruelly. It seems odd to me that people can dote on one type of animal, but care nothing about the inhumane slaughter of another.

The Bible cites many examples of eating and sacrificing animals. Therefore, many religious people accept the slaughter of animals, especially for food. That said, as with many verses of the Bible that have become "outdated," just as animal sacrifice has come to pass, so to may have animal consumption. It may indeed be time we rethink the roles of animals in our world - a thought I feel we have ignored for far too long (as evidenced by the rapid extinction of animals and other life forms on this planet).

I am not a vegetarian - however, I am taking more notice of the meat I eat. While poultry and fish remain in my diet, pork and beef do not. I tried to be a vegetarian once before and was amazed at the resistance I received. However, I think today's world might be more accepting. Nonetheless, it is my choice to not be a vegetarian at this time. I would be offended by anyone taking issue with this.

The decision to eat or not eat meat is personal and should be respected. I would not eat a dog, this is my decision. If someone chooses to eat a dog, I will respect that right - providing the meat isn't wasted.

The one area I find annoying is waste. In the U.S., we euthanize hundreds of thousands of "pets" due to overpopulation. Many people love that "cute little puppy" but hate that "big grown dog." Others adore an Easter duckling, but despise a loud duck. Kittens are a fun ball of fluff, but become unwanted adult cats. Rather than criticize people over their animal-eating diets, I'd rather criticize people over the choice of pets and their inability to be proper pet owners.

People scream how wrong it is to use a dog for food or scientific research, yet they poorly treat their own pets, not providing them proper food and/or medication. Others fail to neuter their pets, which leads to overpopulation and unwanted animals. I cannot comprehend a society that kills hundreds of thousands of animals due to neglect, yet screams "foul" at the thought of using a "pet" for food or research.

It's this contradiction, cruelty and waste that annoy me more than the thought of eating a dog. Still, one cannot simply state that one *must* eat meat to get protein, as the proper combination of vegetables will supply all the protein we need in our diets.

Ultimately, my point is that we should not criticize a person for desiring to try dog any more that we should criticize a person for eating an egg or a cow. And rather than cry at the cruelty of killing a dog for food, we should look internally at our own cruelty towards our "pets" as well as the animals we "serve for dinner."

********************

Oh, as for bestiality... well, I find it best not to delve into the human psyche on sexuality, so my statement here will be brief. I find bestiality offensive, but I will still respect the right of someone (hopefully someone FAR away from me) to do this as long as they are not treating the animal cruelly.




[This message has been edited by doctorwho (edited 01-18-2002).]
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Old 01-18-2002, 05:42 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by sulawesigirl4:
"follow me and I will make you fishers of men" is a metaphor that Jesus was employing while calling men who happened to be fishermen to work with him. To take it out of context destroys the meaning.
Yes, sulaswesigirl14, I did realise that, that was what I was saying; Miss MacPhisto doesn't really have a point in putting that quote out of contest.

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Old 01-18-2002, 05:45 PM   #37
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A truly great post, doctorwho, however... I have on enquiry...

Quote:
Originally posted by doctorwho:
as long as they are not treating the animal cruelly.
Is that possible in bestiality?

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Old 01-18-2002, 07:21 PM   #38
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Well, people have used the bible to condone many cruel practises: slavery, mistreatment of women and children, cruelty torwards homosexuals,etc.
But you cant place yourself above all others and go ona bout how its not ok to eat humans, but its perfectly ok to eat a dog. Dogs,cats, and horses(among others) are not, and never have been "food animals" (yes i abhore that term)to any people except freaks who'll eat anything that moves.
Primitive human beings developed the dog exclusively for the purpose for companionship and to help out with certain tasks, such as guarding, herding, hunting, etc...and the cat, for companionship and to help eliminate vermin.
Horses were hunted by some, but this practise quickly stopped when it was discovered that they could be riden and used for work.
SOME dogs and cats can be vegetarians, but this diet must be closely monitored by a veterinarian. And cats dont do as well as dogs. They need taurine, which currently can only be found in meat sources, or so i'm told.
As for other forms of cruelty torwards dogs and cats,such as overpopulation, no one in their right mind would allow that either.
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Old 01-18-2002, 07:28 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Miss MacPhisto:
Well, personally, i draw the line at the existence of a heart. if it has a beating heart, it is evolved enough to warrant humane treatment and respect for its life.
human kind is not a herbivore (at least it wasn't last time I saw a discussion like this)
instead of hunting (like other animals do) we raise animals ourself and use them for consumption
human race has evolved a bit, but basically we're still following our instinct

we don't raise pets for consumption, that's why we don't eat them

personally, I'll eat anything that doesn't run away from me

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Old 01-18-2002, 08:10 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anthony:

Is that possible in bestiality?

Ant.
Having never participated in any form of bestiality, I can't answer. However, I'm sure that one could do both. One of my most perverted friends used to talk about having a dog lick peanut butter off of his, well... He did NOT actually do this - he just thought of it (like I said, he was perverted, at least by my standards ).

If all the dog is doing is licking, uh, something, then I guess it's not being cruelly treated. So there's one example of humane bestiality. Blah.



[This message has been edited by doctorwho (edited 01-18-2002).]
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Old 01-18-2002, 08:29 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by Miss MacPhisto:
Well, people have used the bible to condone many cruel practises: slavery, mistreatment of women and children, cruelty torwards homosexuals,etc.
But you cant place yourself above all others and go ona bout how its not ok to eat humans, but its perfectly ok to eat a dog.

As for other forms of cruelty torwards dogs and cats,such as overpopulation, no one in their right mind would allow that either.

I never said it was "perfectly OK" to eat a dog. I just said that I cannot, in good concious, tell anyone not to do so, for I feel it would be hypocritical.

India provides a great example of a society where eating beef is HUGE "no-no." Yet, in our Western society, we have commercials advertising beef. Likewise, some societies consider eating a chicken egg grotesque, yet we eat those too. Would you want someone scolding your diet because of their religious beliefs? You state that some animals simply weren't meant for eating - yet this is how 1 billion people feel about cows. Has that stopped you from ever eating beef? This is why I say that I cannot criticize one person for his/her diet choices when I could very well be criticized for mine.

You also state that "no one in their right mind" would be cruel to animals, yet here in the U.S., we kill hundreds of thousands of dogs and cats every year because of overpopulation. We think nothing of this. These are lives just going to waste. Yet people scream when someone suggests using these animals for food or research. This contradiction is illogical.

If we lived in a utopia, yes, animal cruelty of any form would not exist. But let's get back to reality. Cruelty does exist. Dog and cat overpopulation exits. People often abandon their pets, thinking they'll "survive in the wild" even though these animals are so domesticated, they no longer know how to hunt. This is reality. To say that it's wrong to eat a dog or use one for research but then ignore the cruelty that exists all around you is naive.

I'm not saying I support dining on "rump of dog" or "leg of cat" for dinner. I too would be apalled by this. But it's easier for me to accept an animal being used for food or research than to see it being neglected and beaten on the street.

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Old 01-19-2002, 03:14 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by Miss MacPhisto:
Dogs,cats, and horses(among others) are not, and never have been "food animals" (yes i abhore that term)to any people except freaks who'll eat anything that moves.
I'm not someone who will eat anything that moves, but like I said, I have eaten horse, so I must be a freak. And what do you want to be when you grow up, Miss MacPhisto?

On a more positive note, adam's_mistress, that was a very good post indeed! In fact, I myself feel guilty on my country's behalf for having introduced oranges etc. to the people of Greenland, messing up their systems over the course of a few generations and thus making them reliant on us where they used to be completely self-sufficient.

[This message has been edited by Klodomir (edited 01-19-2002).]
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Old 01-19-2002, 11:19 AM   #43
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If it is merely a cultural thing, then why, pray tell, can one not eat humans? Can we go around and slaughter each other and put our neighbors on the table??/I mean, hey, if its "part of my culture" then i must be allowed to do whatever i want, 'eh?? And yes, some cultures DO eat humans.
I personally wouldnt eat my neighbors, because they are disgusting sick people, but hey, i cant speak for everyone... RIIIIIGHT? Legalize cannibalism!! Solve the overpopulation problem at long last!

[/B]
I haven't seen this argument in this discussion before and I don't know all the ins and outs of it, but there is a valid reason against canibalism. Biologically, it's unwise to eat one's own species. Often, when there is a new or mass disease among animals raised for consumption (often in terrible conditions) one of the reasons there is this disease is because the animals were given food made of their own species. The meat industry isn't that ethical and many animals are treated horrendously. By eating one's own species, initial defects/irregularities/diseases in the eaten body can seriously influence the bodies of those practising cannibalism.
This is also apparent in the animal kingdom. There are many carnivores, but none of those carnivores eat their own species. Well, maybe some races do, but they are known to have many animals with defects caused by the cannibalism.
Not eating humans is therefore not only a cultural thing, it's also a biological necessity to ensure the survival of the human race.

And as for thinking it's immoral to eat cats, dogs and horses that are raised as pets; I don't know the exact conditions in the countries that eat those animals, but I think they are not raised as pets, but as cattle meant for consumption. So there would be no difference between cows and dogs in those countries.

C ya!

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Old 01-19-2002, 02:59 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klodomir:


On a more positive note, adam's_mistress, that was a very good post indeed! In fact, I myself feel guilty on my country's behalf for having introduced oranges etc. to the people of Greenland, messing up their systems over the course of a few generations and thus making them reliant on us where they used to be completely self-sufficient.

[This message has been edited by Klodomir (edited 01-19-2002).]
Not to be contradictory, but I believe a lot of Icelanders, mainly children in past times were suffering as a result of too much meat in their diet. As you know, the region of Iceland is so harsh that it's near impossible to grow fruits and veggies, so naturally people began suffering from various health conditions as a result of not getting enough balance in their meals. The lack of essential vitamins and minerals from plants caused a series of health issues that couldn't be overlooked: from learning disabilities to fetal growth. A lot of this information has been countered by Icelandic officials in recent times since it was believed that the breeding waters for fish in that region were polluted with mercury, but there was a slightly publicized report on the plight of the Icelander's diet... what was it? I think around 15 or 16 years ago I saw something about this on a program called 60 Minutes but my brain is foggy so memory might not be serving me right.

Anyway, more fruits and vegetables were introduced into the diet to help curb some of the health disorders from people consuming way too much meat in their diet. To do this Iceland had to heavily rely on other countries getting fruits and vegetables to them as they were unable to produce those items in the harsh Icelandic climate. I don't think this is entirely a bad thing, especially since growing children ought to have a balanced diet that consists of something more than meat and fish. Also, for your country in particular, oranges bring in money from the exporting of these products - it brings in money for your country although that alone could bring it's own sets of problems especially if they demand an outrageous price for oranges. Also as you pointed out, the introduction of certain kinds of foods made these people somewhat dependant on foods not normally found in those regions. I guess it's a double edged sword here.

The good news for the people of Iceland is that since those times they have become very keen about their diet. The country as a whole makes a strong effort not to add preservatives or dyes to their food - and with food trade, it is now possile for Icelanders to not only enjoy a more balanced diet for their children but actually enjoy different kinds of foods they might not have been able to get otherwise.

*sigh* What did I just say?

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Old 01-19-2002, 07:00 PM   #45
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Has that stopped you from ever eating beef? You also state that "no one in their right mind" would be cruel to animals, yet here in the U.S., we kill hundreds of thousands of dogs and cats every year because of overpopulation. We think nothing of this.
Um, YES.
I havent eaten beef in eons. And i dont intend to start anytime soon, either.
And no, WE dont kill millions of dogs and cats every year. Nazis at pounds do. I myself have never intentionally killed an animal for any reason whatsoever. And i most certainly do not "think nothing of this". I've saved many an animal, and tricked many a fool over at the city pounds.
And i dont consider anyone who would murder a non-terminally ill animal to be of sound mind. Thats what I meant.

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