Dutch politician assasinated!

[Popmartijn]

This evening a Dutch politician was shot dead while campaining (as the elections are in 9 days). I still cannot believe it has happened, that it even could happen.

The first reports are already in the parallels in Europe thread, but I don't think they belong there. Yahoo has a news story as has CNN (albeit with a bit more factual errors): http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/05/06/fortuyn.shooting/index.html

This is madness!

Martijn

 

[Anthony]

Even though there have been more tragic deaths in the past, I still look upon the assasination of Fortuyn with concern; sympathies for the Right-Wingers will increase in Europe, as the sympathies for the immigrants will fall.

I look upon the murder of Fortuyn as disturbing, as it has great implications for the future development of Right-wing politics. The fury is growing, and more wood is being added to the fire, the assasination of Fortuyn is one big log.

I am concerned for the future.

Ant.

 

[Like O2]

A sad day for all our friends in the Netherlands.

 

[Anthony]

popsadie;

I cannot pretend to show sorrow for a man who was particularly hostile to an entire culture, calling them backward and practically blaming them for many of the country's problems. I may have strong political views, but those do not govern my reaction to this piece of news. The fact of the matter is I too am concerned, though I don't really have any reason to feel deep sadness, and I don't see why you should either (correct me if I'm wrong).

The fact remains, other people - better people who have contributed positively to humanity and have not classified a large group of the world as backward - have died before and will continue to die. I do not know if that in death he will be more dangerous than he would have been in life had he been elected; the world is in a crisis over matters such as religion, with Islam playing an integral part in all of this, and the last thing people need is to be called 'backward'.

Yes, I do keep mentioning it, but I consider it highly significant. Consider this, when Christians are called backward (amongst other things) by the Al-Qaeda forces, we know it is not only dispicable as it is horrendous of them to think it, so why on Earth wouldn't a comment reversed such as Mr. Fortuyn's be equally as offensive and abhorrent?

Maybe I am supposed to feel for him as a fellow human being, but the fact is I forget about thousands of other people who suffer everyday, I do not see why I should feel someone who had such questionable values, and values, might I add, that instigate such hatred.

I do not think he was murdered by fellow campaigners.

Ant.

[This message has been edited by Anthony (edited 05-06-2002).]

 

[DrTeeth]

Once again,
Pim Fortuyn called the Islamic culture backward for their stance on emancipation, freedom of speech/press and religion etc. I tend to agree with this although I wouldn't have voted for him.

[This message has been edited by DrTeeth (edited 05-06-2002).]

 

[Popmartijn]

Originally posted by popsadie:
Assisinations of elected leaders..no matter their views..is a sad and concerning thing... Do any Dutch here have any more information on this man?

I couldn't do a very thorough search (as it is late already and I need some sleep), but I have found 2 articles that give somewhat of a profile. The first one is by The Economist that gives some background on his victory in the local elections 2 months ago (to the day) and on the person himself.

The second article is a profile by CNN. But please remember that his program was more than just about immigration (as many articles solely focus on this). He also had many (outspoken) plans about health cary, safety, (social) security and infrastructure.

Martijn

------------------
People criticize me but I know it's not the end
I try to kick the truth, not just to make friends

Spearhead - People In Tha Middle

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by DrTeeth:
Once again,
Pim Fortuyn called the Islamic culture backward for their stance on emancipation, freedom of speech/press and religion etc. I tend to agree with this although I wouldn't have voted for him.

If he was ever to be a leader, I would have expected him to know the difference between Islam and Islamic interpretation. Islam is not about the emancipation of freedom of speech/press and the rights of women, though many governments and cultures have interpeted Islam as such. You can't write off a world religion as 'backward' because of someone's interpetation. His generalisation was a dangerous thing, and I believe it cost him his life.

Ant.

 

[Salome]

Originally posted by Anthony:
His generalisation was a dangerous thing, and I believe it cost him his life.

I also believe generalisation is a very dangerous thing

------------------
Salome
Shake it, shake it, shake it

 

[Popmartijn]

Originally posted by Anthony:

If he was ever to be a leader, I would have expected him to know the difference between Islam and Islamic interpretation. Islam is not about the emancipation of freedom of speech/press and the rights of women, though many governments and cultures have interpeted Islam as such. You can't write off a world religion as 'backward' because of someone's interpetation. His generalisation was a dangerous thing, and I believe it cost him his life.

Ant.

I assume you've made a typo in your reasoning about the Islam, otherwise you've just completely undermined all of your arguments before.

Anyway, here is some explanation/background on that remark (a remark he later said was maybe a bit too harsh). From the New York Times :

During [a recent - MJ] interview he was asked why he was so critical of Muslim immigrants. He said he found it shameful that foreign Islamic clergy here used offensive language against gays in this country, and that Muslim men tried to impose medieval rural customs in the Netherlands. "How can you respect a culture if the woman has to walk several steps behind her man, has to stay in the kitchen and keep her mouth shut," he said.

Marty


------------------
People criticize me but I know it's not the end
I try to kick the truth, not just to make friends

Spearhead - People In Tha Middle

 

[hiphop]

Good arguments, Anthony. Although I don?t think there will be the big martyr effect. Haider has tried this when he officially retreated from his statal (not country, in Carinthia he is still in service) duties.

I don?t think it can get any worse than it is, and I think this death shouldn?t change that much. Except if the people from the Netherlands let themselves be misused by propaganda and a kind of "politically correct democratic humanity".

I don?t know this person well enough to judge him. But I don?t care about him that lot. At the same time, so many children are dying of Aids. I care for them.

Not for a populist who tries to make hate flourish. This may seem hard, but it doesn?t move me. I know that everyone should be equal, but this concept is anyway far from reality. I guess he was not the opinion that everyone should be treated equal. So why bother about him?

 

[popsadie]

???? ant, I know you have strong political views...but this response seemed awfully cold. The funny thing is, the far right in the Netherlands would probably seem moderate here in the US. Assisinations of elected leaders..no matter their views..is a sad and concerning thing... Do any Dutch here have any more information on this man?

 

[Popmartijn]

Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars:
Not for a populist who tries to make hate flourish. This may seem hard, but it doesn?t move me. I know that everyone should be equal, but this concept is anyway far from reality. I guess he was not the opinion that everyone should be treated equal. So why bother about him?

Thing is, he was of the opinion that everyone should be treated equal. In his eyes, there should be no reason why one person should be treated different than any other, no matter what religion, ethnic background or sexual preference someone has.

And why bother? Well, for one thing, here is a politician killed for his opinions, not an issue that can be taken lightly. Barring WW2, this hasn't happened in the Netherlands before. So is it still possible to openly give your opinions about issues, or should you fear violence (being killed too)?
I disagreed with his program on many points, but he did serve as a great wake-up call for the ruling politicians. And I think he had all the right to say what he thought, just like anybody else has.

Marty


------------------
People criticize me but I know it's not the end
I try to kick the truth, not just to make friends

Spearhead - People In Tha Middle

 

[Anthony]

Popmartijn;

I didn't make a typo. I don't see how that comment undermined my previous ones either.
And as for the comment about him seeing everyone being treated equally, I don't see how thats possible, when he didn't believe that an entire culture was on equal footing with the rest.

Ant.

 

[Popmartijn]

Originally posted by Anthony:
Popmartijn;

I didn't make a typo. I don't see how that comment undermined my previous ones either.

This is your text from the post on 05-06-2002 02:51 PM:

Islam is not about the emancipation of freedom of speech/press and the rights of women, though many governments and cultures have interpeted Islam as such.

So you are saying the Islam is denying (ie, my interpretation of your 'is not about') emancipation of freedom of speech/press and the rights of women? Because that is what I'm reading here.

Marty


------------------
People criticize me but I know it's not the end
I try to kick the truth, not just to make friends

Spearhead - People In Tha Middle

 

[hiphop]

Well, Popmartjin, you?ve got the same right to care for him as I have the right not to care about his death.
The point you are trying to make with giving him reason about this Islamic argument is, if we are as democratic as we say, we also have to accept the non - democratic other cultures. I personally think this discussion leads to nothing. You may go on forever condemnig the things happening to women in some Islamic states, but this hasn?t to do one bit with the death of a politician.
I don?t know, Popmart; like I told in the previous post: I don?t know enough about him to judge his politics. But it doesn?t seem to me he was a totally liberal, treating everyone equally, person. It doesn?t seem to me the TV or "free" hype mediaconglomerateshit compared him with Gandhi, or Lennon, or even Kennedy.
I know the Netherlands may be a little shocked, but come on! Your country, above all, has one of the most formed civil societies I have ever seen. You had the real 60?s Provo, you have liberal laws, you have so friendly, opened people.
Look, sure, I would like to be an idealist and to say: I will pray for him, like for everyone, no matter what he did in his life.
Not anymore.
Since Genova last year.

 

[hiphop]

Oh, and if you really think:
He had the right to say what he thought, just like anybody else has...
it?s a little misconcepted, isn?t it?
First, not everyone has the right to say what he thinks. Ok, maybe in the Netherlands, granted by law. But anyway there is a big difference in saying what you think just because you are in a discussion with friends, or to play a role in the public, where he populizes and uses whole ethnic groups for his bloody little power purposes.
And then, how do politicians get their positions? Ok, elected; but to get into the position of being a candidate for a party, or of leading a party, includes many dirty tricks, a lot of legally grey actions, ass licking, intrigues and destroying other peoples careers. I can?t blame this man, but I don?t think he was that kind of angel just saying what he believed in, like you obviously want to state.

Stay tuned, Popmart...

 

[Salome]

Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars:
there is a big difference in saying what you think just because you are in a discussion with friends, or to play a role in the public, where he populizes and uses whole ethnic groups for his bloody little power purposes.

I thought you stated before that you didn't know much about this man at all, but now you do seem to know exactly what he did and why he did it

am I missing something?



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Salome
Shake it, shake it, shake it

 

[Popmartijn]

Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars:
I know the Netherlands may be a little shocked, but come on! Your country, above all, has one of the most formed civil societies I have ever seen. You had the real 60?s Provo, you have liberal laws, you have so friendly, opened people.

I think this is the very reason why so many are shocked in the Netherlands. We always thought we had this open democratic country. But now it don't seem like that no more, you can apparently get killed for voicing your opinion here.

Marty



------------------
People criticize me but I know it's not the end
I try to kick the truth, not just to make friends

Spearhead - People In Tha Middle

 

[hiphop]

And you, Salome, just playing the advocatus diaboli ;-)?

As a politician he has played a role in the public.

Yesterday?s news said he was known as a populist.

Populists tend to use ethnic groups (in their poulist speeches) for their power purposes; this is one of the principles of populism, isn?t it?

I said I didn?t know him that well, because not being from the NL I don?t know enough of his political program. So I may as well be wrong, this is what I wanted to add, just in case he turns out to be a Humanist, Buddha lover, Anti-Globalization activist and Amsterdam Eternal Light Foundation Supporter.

Any other answers you need? No, I don?t want to marry. Not yet.

 

[hiphop]

As I said, I can understand you are shocked. But you can get killed everywhere if somebody doesn?t like your opinion. I am principally against violence, too. So don?t think I am happy. I am just not shocked, and neither sorry. I have seen worse things.

 

[unforgettableFOXfire]

While Im of course saddened at the death of a figurehead in the world of politics, especially with elections coming up, etc. It doesnt expressly affect me, living in canada and such, but its just (from a historical sense) interesting to see an assassination occur as such. Sad. Morbidly intruiging. But sad.

 

[Anthony]

Popmartijn;

You are right ofcourse, for some bizarre reason my mind was at a completely different tangent, so when I used the word 'emancipation' I thought I was using another word altogether. The opposite in meaning, in fact. But yes, I grant you it was a contradiction and a typo.

However, I still stand by what I said, and not only do I think that Mr. Fortuyn's views were wrong and hostile, but destructive.

And as for democracy and equal rights, I understand how it can shock a country like the Netherlands, but no one is ever as democratic as they may think. And there is no such thing as equal human rights, in my cynical opinion.

Ant.

 

[z edge]

This is a horrible thing that happened to Mr. Fortuyn.

I read about it in this mornings paper. I am a little confused about your right wing party, considering he was openly gay. I don't mention this with any jest, please understand. I guess I'm just ignorant of your politics. Over here, that would be almost an oxymoron.

Once again, this is an unnecessarily terrible tragedy.
RIP Mr. Fortuyn

 

[U2Bama]

Originally posted by z edge:
I am a little confused about your right wing party, considering he was openly gay. I don't mention this with any jest, please understand. I guess I'm just ignorant of your politics. Over here, that would be almost an oxymoron.

Once again, this is an unnecessarily terrible tragedy.
RIP Mr. Fortuyn

You bring up an interesting point here, Mr. Z Edge.

With the risk of me being labelled "intolerant" or biggoted or whatever, allow me to theorize on the late Mr. Fortuyn's statement on Islamic culture.

Being that he has always been known for being (1) openly homosexual and (2) vocal about his political opinions, could it be that intolerance of homosexuality and political dissent in certain "Islamic cultures" led Mr. Fortuyn to consider those cultures to be "backward"?

Face it, people: since the 1979 "Islamic Revolution," Iran has executed 4,000 homosexuals for the sin/civil crime of being homosexual. And those champions of tolerance in Afghanistan, the Taliban, carried out at least 10 PUBLIC executions of homosexuals during their reign of tolerance and cultural diversity. I certainly can't see a homosexual European politician such as Mr. Fortuyn calling such culures "progressive and forward-thinking." (Personally, I also have a problem with the theocracy that exists in several Islamic cultures). And since Muslim immigrants are a minority culture in the Netherlands, Mr. Fortuyn comes across as a "right-winger" intolerant of immigrants.

Granted, his statement generalized and therefore was not diplomatic. But it sure didn't warrant his death.

~U2Alabama

 

[Anthony]

Z_edge and U2Bama;

From what I remember from an interview with Fortuyn, this is what he said;
Reporter: So you think they are backward?
Fortuyn: Of course the Islamic culture is backward! How can you call depriving the rights of women forward? If such an Islamic culture ruled a country, people like me wouldn't be allowed to exist, if that isn't backward... what is it?

I don't think its a secret that he was very much anti-Islam because of his homosexuality, that had a lot to do with it. However, I don't think its surpising that a gay man can be right-wing, there are plenty of openly gay right-wingers in Europe, and there have been many in the past. Hating to point the obvious, but homosexuality is not a political orientation.

Ant.

 

[U2Bama]

Anthony:

Of course homosexuality is not a political orientation, but can't you see, in the very things you said, that the intolerance and persecution of homosexuals in certain Islamic cultures would lead Mr. Fortuyn to consider them to be "backward"?

~U2Alabama

 

[z edge]

Maybe I misread something, but I thought he wasn't even considered a viable candidate. Or that he didn't have a very good chance of winning? If so, why would they kill him?

As far as sexual orientation and party lines, I realize how we are different here than in Europe. Though I do not know what the highest public office an openly homosexual candidate has run for here, I bet it was with not with the Republican party.

On an interesting note regarding Muslims, I was told some very strange things from a British doctor in "a Muslim country". He told me of the "oddities" he experienced while performing physical exams. He said that it was every "_____'s" goal to be a man, and that (to them) women were second class, only for producing and raising sons (not daughters). Also, he said that little girls wanted to be boys so bad that they would sometimes believe they were boys, and come to him to try and enter their air force thinking they were men. And finally, he mentioned that a majority of the men practiced homosexuality amongst themselves.

I have alwasy wondered about this, and it is funny the same religion would condemn their own actions when performed by others. Not to mention, sentence to death, committ murder, etc.

 

[Popmartijn]

Originally posted by U2Bama:
Being that he has always been known for being (1) openly homosexual and (2) vocal about his political opinions, could it be that intolerance of homosexuality and political dissent in certain "Islamic cultures" led Mr. Fortuyn to consider those cultures to be "backward"?

Bama, I think this was also (a big part of) the case. IIRC, Fortuyn's statement came shortly after an imam (what I understand he is some kind of Islamic priest) said that gays were even lower than pigs (or something of that kind), coupled with increasingly intolerant behaviour by (many) young Muslims against homosexuals (harassing them in the streets, etc.) and it might be a reason for his (initial) statement.

As for him to be considered right wing, that is a difficult question. Many of his ideas cut through all the political boundaries. He had ideas that were on the left side of the spectrum and that were on the right side. But he got brandished right wing because of some of his ideas regarding immigration (he wanted to restrict it so that the country could absorb the massive current inflow first and that later on the persons who did get asylum in the Netherlands would have a fair chance to live in reasonable circumstances). As the elections are looming many politicians only took the 'no immigrants' part from his statement to put Fortuyn down as a right wing politician you did not want to vote for.
The (foreign) media quickly picked up on this, hence the reports everywhere as Fortuyn being the Dutch Le Pen (or Haider, etc.). To illustrate, I can now give the case of Anthony here. He made a negative statement about the Islam, so it's quite easy for me now to call him a racist. If others also start calling him that (because they want him out, or they want more attention to themselves) he can quickly be brandished as a racist, without many knowing the exact reason why.

(BIG DISCLAIMER! I do not think Anthony is racist or whatsoever. I only referenced to his original, and incorrect, statement for illustration purposes!)

Anyway, the elections next week will be very strange as Fortuyn will be gone but his party still exists. The elections were going to be inpredictable, but now even more so.

Marty


------------------
People criticize me but I know it's not the end
I try to kick the truth, not just to make friends

Spearhead - People In Tha Middle

 

[Popmartijn]

Originally posted by z edge:
Maybe I misread something, but I thought he wasn't even considered a viable candidate. Or that he didn't have a very good chance of winning? If so, why would they kill him?

His party would maybe become the third biggest party in the Netherlands. I even heard that the latest polls before his dead even predicted that he could become the biggest. In short, he was considered a very viable candidate.

As for the question, why would they kill him? I don't know yet. The murderer was apparently working for an extreme environmental group. But he has not made a statement yet to the police, so no-one knows his motives (although rumours suggest it might be because Fortuyn was not against the use of fur and apparently wanted to abolish the restriction that animals could not be breeded for their fur, but these are rumours).

Marty


------------------
People criticize me but I know it's not the end
I try to kick the truth, not just to make friends

Spearhead - People In Tha Middle

 

[speedracer]

Marty or Salome,

Is it true that the maximum sentence for a convicted murderer in the Netherlands is 20 years? That's what I'm reading on the BBC website now.