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Old 05-07-2002, 08:22 AM   #16
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Oh, and if you really think:
He had the right to say what he thought, just like anybody else has...
itīs a little misconcepted, isnīt it?
First, not everyone has the right to say what he thinks. Ok, maybe in the Netherlands, granted by law. But anyway there is a big difference in saying what you think just because you are in a discussion with friends, or to play a role in the public, where he populizes and uses whole ethnic groups for his bloody little power purposes.
And then, how do politicians get their positions? Ok, elected; but to get into the position of being a candidate for a party, or of leading a party, includes many dirty tricks, a lot of legally grey actions, ass licking, intrigues and destroying other peoples careers. I canīt blame this man, but I donīt think he was that kind of angel just saying what he believed in, like you obviously want to state.

Stay tuned, Popmart...
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Old 05-07-2002, 08:33 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars:
there is a big difference in saying what you think just because you are in a discussion with friends, or to play a role in the public, where he populizes and uses whole ethnic groups for his bloody little power purposes.
I thought you stated before that you didn't know much about this man at all, but now you do seem to know exactly what he did and why he did it

am I missing something?



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Old 05-07-2002, 09:05 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars:
I know the Netherlands may be a little shocked, but come on! Your country, above all, has one of the most formed civil societies I have ever seen. You had the real 60īs Provo, you have liberal laws, you have so friendly, opened people.
I think this is the very reason why so many are shocked in the Netherlands. We always thought we had this open democratic country. But now it don't seem like that no more, you can apparently get killed for voicing your opinion here.

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Old 05-07-2002, 09:15 AM   #19
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And you, Salome, just playing the advocatus diaboli ;-)?

As a politician he has played a role in the public.

Yesterdayīs news said he was known as a populist.

Populists tend to use ethnic groups (in their poulist speeches) for their power purposes; this is one of the principles of populism, isnīt it?

I said I didnīt know him that well, because not being from the NL I donīt know enough of his political program. So I may as well be wrong, this is what I wanted to add, just in case he turns out to be a Humanist, Buddha lover, Anti-Globalization activist and Amsterdam Eternal Light Foundation Supporter.

Any other answers you need? No, I donīt want to marry. Not yet.


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Old 05-07-2002, 09:24 AM   #20
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As I said, I can understand you are shocked. But you can get killed everywhere if somebody doesnīt like your opinion. I am principally against violence, too. So donīt think I am happy. I am just not shocked, and neither sorry. I have seen worse things.
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Old 05-07-2002, 04:26 PM   #21
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While Im of course saddened at the death of a figurehead in the world of politics, especially with elections coming up, etc. It doesnt expressly affect me, living in canada and such, but its just (from a historical sense) interesting to see an assassination occur as such. Sad. Morbidly intruiging. But sad.
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Old 05-07-2002, 04:59 PM   #22
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Popmartijn;

You are right ofcourse, for some bizarre reason my mind was at a completely different tangent, so when I used the word 'emancipation' I thought I was using another word altogether. The opposite in meaning, in fact. But yes, I grant you it was a contradiction and a typo.

However, I still stand by what I said, and not only do I think that Mr. Fortuyn's views were wrong and hostile, but destructive.

And as for democracy and equal rights, I understand how it can shock a country like the Netherlands, but no one is ever as democratic as they may think. And there is no such thing as equal human rights, in my cynical opinion.

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Old 05-07-2002, 05:32 PM   #23
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This is a horrible thing that happened to Mr. Fortuyn.

I read about it in this mornings paper. I am a little confused about your right wing party, considering he was openly gay. I don't mention this with any jest, please understand. I guess I'm just ignorant of your politics. Over here, that would be almost an oxymoron.

Once again, this is an unnecessarily terrible tragedy.
RIP Mr. Fortuyn
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Old 05-07-2002, 07:35 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by z edge:
I am a little confused about your right wing party, considering he was openly gay. I don't mention this with any jest, please understand. I guess I'm just ignorant of your politics. Over here, that would be almost an oxymoron.

Once again, this is an unnecessarily terrible tragedy.
RIP Mr. Fortuyn
You bring up an interesting point here, Mr. Z Edge.

With the risk of me being labelled "intolerant" or biggoted or whatever, allow me to theorize on the late Mr. Fortuyn's statement on Islamic culture.

Being that he has always been known for being (1) openly homosexual and (2) vocal about his political opinions, could it be that intolerance of homosexuality and political dissent in certain "Islamic cultures" led Mr. Fortuyn to consider those cultures to be "backward"?

Face it, people: since the 1979 "Islamic Revolution," Iran has executed 4,000 homosexuals for the sin/civil crime of being homosexual. And those champions of tolerance in Afghanistan, the Taliban, carried out at least 10 PUBLIC executions of homosexuals during their reign of tolerance and cultural diversity. I certainly can't see a homosexual European politician such as Mr. Fortuyn calling such culures "progressive and forward-thinking." (Personally, I also have a problem with the theocracy that exists in several Islamic cultures). And since Muslim immigrants are a minority culture in the Netherlands, Mr. Fortuyn comes across as a "right-winger" intolerant of immigrants.

Granted, his statement generalized and therefore was not diplomatic. But it sure didn't warrant his death.

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Old 05-07-2002, 07:44 PM   #25
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Z_edge and U2Bama;

From what I remember from an interview with Fortuyn, this is what he said;
Reporter: So you think they are backward?
Fortuyn: Of course the Islamic culture is backward! How can you call depriving the rights of women forward? If such an Islamic culture ruled a country, people like me wouldn't be allowed to exist, if that isn't backward... what is it?

I don't think its a secret that he was very much anti-Islam because of his homosexuality, that had a lot to do with it. However, I don't think its surpising that a gay man can be right-wing, there are plenty of openly gay right-wingers in Europe, and there have been many in the past. Hating to point the obvious, but homosexuality is not a political orientation.

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Old 05-07-2002, 08:00 PM   #26
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Anthony:

Of course homosexuality is not a political orientation, but can't you see, in the very things you said, that the intolerance and persecution of homosexuals in certain Islamic cultures would lead Mr. Fortuyn to consider them to be "backward"?

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Old 05-07-2002, 09:38 PM   #27
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Maybe I misread something, but I thought he wasn't even considered a viable candidate. Or that he didn't have a very good chance of winning? If so, why would they kill him?

As far as sexual orientation and party lines, I realize how we are different here than in Europe. Though I do not know what the highest public office an openly homosexual candidate has run for here, I bet it was with not with the Republican party.

On an interesting note regarding Muslims, I was told some very strange things from a British doctor in "a Muslim country". He told me of the "oddities" he experienced while performing physical exams. He said that it was every "_____'s" goal to be a man, and that (to them) women were second class, only for producing and raising sons (not daughters). Also, he said that little girls wanted to be boys so bad that they would sometimes believe they were boys, and come to him to try and enter their air force thinking they were men. And finally, he mentioned that a majority of the men practiced homosexuality amongst themselves.

I have alwasy wondered about this, and it is funny the same religion would condemn their own actions when performed by others. Not to mention, sentence to death, committ murder, etc.
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Old 05-08-2002, 02:18 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Bama:
Being that he has always been known for being (1) openly homosexual and (2) vocal about his political opinions, could it be that intolerance of homosexuality and political dissent in certain "Islamic cultures" led Mr. Fortuyn to consider those cultures to be "backward"?
Bama, I think this was also (a big part of) the case. IIRC, Fortuyn's statement came shortly after an imam (what I understand he is some kind of Islamic priest) said that gays were even lower than pigs (or something of that kind), coupled with increasingly intolerant behaviour by (many) young Muslims against homosexuals (harassing them in the streets, etc.) and it might be a reason for his (initial) statement.

As for him to be considered right wing, that is a difficult question. Many of his ideas cut through all the political boundaries. He had ideas that were on the left side of the spectrum and that were on the right side. But he got brandished right wing because of some of his ideas regarding immigration (he wanted to restrict it so that the country could absorb the massive current inflow first and that later on the persons who did get asylum in the Netherlands would have a fair chance to live in reasonable circumstances). As the elections are looming many politicians only took the 'no immigrants' part from his statement to put Fortuyn down as a right wing politician you did not want to vote for.
The (foreign) media quickly picked up on this, hence the reports everywhere as Fortuyn being the Dutch Le Pen (or Haider, etc.). To illustrate, I can now give the case of Anthony here. He made a negative statement about the Islam, so it's quite easy for me now to call him a racist. If others also start calling him that (because they want him out, or they want more attention to themselves) he can quickly be brandished as a racist, without many knowing the exact reason why.

(BIG DISCLAIMER! I do not think Anthony is racist or whatsoever. I only referenced to his original, and incorrect, statement for illustration purposes!)

Anyway, the elections next week will be very strange as Fortuyn will be gone but his party still exists. The elections were going to be inpredictable, but now even more so.

Marty


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Old 05-08-2002, 02:24 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by z edge:
Maybe I misread something, but I thought he wasn't even considered a viable candidate. Or that he didn't have a very good chance of winning? If so, why would they kill him?
His party would maybe become the third biggest party in the Netherlands. I even heard that the latest polls before his dead even predicted that he could become the biggest. In short, he was considered a very viable candidate.

As for the question, why would they kill him? I don't know yet. The murderer was apparently working for an extreme environmental group. But he has not made a statement yet to the police, so no-one knows his motives (although rumours suggest it might be because Fortuyn was not against the use of fur and apparently wanted to abolish the restriction that animals could not be breeded for their fur, but these are rumours).

Marty


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Old 05-08-2002, 11:57 AM   #30
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Marty or Salome,

Is it true that the maximum sentence for a convicted murderer in the Netherlands is 20 years? That's what I'm reading on the BBC website now.
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