Duke University Suspends Entire Lacrosse Team Due To Rape Allegation - Page 6 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 04-10-2006, 11:49 PM   #76
Blue Crack Distributor
 
Headache in a Suitcase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Stateless
Posts: 56,385
Local Time: 07:12 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by indra


Most I've met have been jerks.
painting with a rather broad brush there, aren't we?
__________________

__________________
Headache in a Suitcase is online now  
Old 04-11-2006, 11:00 AM   #77
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,475
Local Time: 07:12 PM
at this point, it doesn't seem like there's much of a case to be made against the Duke players.

this was written a few days ago, but i thought it was interesting and might be a good jumping off point for discussion (and i like to use my Nexis ID for good and circumvent the idiocy that is Times Select):



[q]Copyright 2006 The New York Times Company
The New York Times

April 9, 2006 Sunday
Late Edition - Final

SECTION: Section 4; Column 1; Editorial Desk; Pg. 12

LENGTH: 756 words

HEADLINE: Virtues And Victims

BYLINE: By DAVID BROOKS

BODY:


All great scandals occur twice, first as Tom Wolfe novels, then as real-life events that nightmarishly mimic them. And so after ''I Am Charlotte Simmons,'' it was perhaps inevitable that Duke University would have to endure a mini-social explosion involving athletic thugs, resentful townies, nervous administrators, male predators, aggrieved professors, binge drinking and lust gone wild.

If you wander through the thicket of commentary that already surrounds the Duke lacrosse scandal, the first thing you notice is how sociological it is. In almost every article and piece of commentary, the event is portrayed not as a crime between individuals but as a clash between classes, races and sexes.

''This whole sordid party scene played out at the prestigious university is deeply disturbing on a number of levels, including those involving gender, race and the notion of athletic entitlement and privilege,'' a USA Today columnist wrote.

''The collisions are epic: black and white, town and gown, rich and poor, privilege and plain, jocks and scholars,'' a CBS analyst observed.

The key word in the coverage has been ''entitlement.'' In a thousand different ways commentators have asserted (based on no knowledge of the people involved) that the lacrosse players behaved rancidly because they felt privileged and entitled to act as they pleased.

The main theme shaping the coverage is that inequality leads to exploitation. The whites felt free to exploit the blacks. The men felt free to exploit women. The jocks felt free to exploit everybody else. As a Duke professor, Houston Baker, wrote, their environment gave the lacrosse players ''license to rape, maraud, deploy hate speech and feel proud of themselves in the bargain.''

It could be that this environmental, sociological explanation of events is entirely accurate. But it says something about our current intellectual climate that almost every reporter and commentator used these mental categories so unconsciously and automatically.

Several decades ago, American commentators would have used an entirely different vocabulary to grapple with what happened at Duke. Instead of the vocabulary of sociology, they would have used the language of morality and character.

If you were looking at this scandal through that language, you would look at the e-mail message one of the players sent on the night in question. This is the one in which a young man joked about killing strippers and cutting off their skin.

You would say that the person who felt free to send this message to his buddies had crashed through several moral guardrails. You would surmise that his character had been corroded by shock jocks and raunch culture and that he'd entered a nihilistic moral universe where young men entertain each other with bravura displays of immoralism. A community so degraded, you might surmise, is not a long way from actual sexual assault.

You would then ask questions very different from the sociological ones: How have these young men slipped into depravity? Why have they not developed sufficient character to restrain their baser impulses?

The educators who used this vocabulary several decades ago understood that when you concentrate young men, they have a tropism toward barbarism. That's why these educators cared less about academics than about instilling a formula for character building. The formula, then called chivalry, consisted first of manners, habits and self-imposed restraints to prevent the downward slide.

Furthermore, it was believed that each of us had a godlike and a demonic side, and that decent people perpetually strengthened the muscles of their virtuous side in order to restrain the deathless sinner within. If you read commencement addresses from, say, the 1920's, you can actually see college presidents exhorting their students to battle the beast within -- a sentiment that if uttered by a contemporary administrator would cause the audience to gape and the earth to fall off its axis.

Today that old code of obsolete chivalry is gone, as is a whole vocabulary on how young people should think about character.

But in ''I Am Charlotte Simmons,'' Wolfe tried to steer readers back past the identity groups to the ghost in the machine, the individual soul. Wolfe's heroine is a modern girl searching for honor in a world where the social rules have dissolved, and who commits ''moral suicide'' because she is unprepared for what she faces.

Many critics reacted furiously to these parts of Wolfe's book. And we are where we are.
[/q]
__________________

__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 04-11-2006, 11:12 AM   #78
Blue Crack Addict
 
MrsSpringsteen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 24,978
Local Time: 07:12 PM
Yes indeed- whether a rape happened in this case or not (and it appears it didn't, even though many rape cases do exist and are successfully prosecuted without DNA evidence) the fact remains that many men and many athletes (especially rich white ones) feel a sense of entitlement and have completely disgusting, sick, inappropriate attitudes towards women. And certainly have a sense of entitlement that appears to thrive at a place like Duke.

I like jocks and men who are humble, respectful of women and of themselves, who conduct themselves with dignity. Who don't have a disgusting sense of entitlement and who live by decent moral principles. Who stand up for what is right and don't follow the crowd.
__________________
MrsSpringsteen is offline  
Old 04-11-2006, 11:19 AM   #79
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,475
Local Time: 07:12 PM
^ i agree with everything you've said, and to build off that a bit, i also think it's true that there's an expectation in place for jocks, and it's sometimes unfair and undeserved, and that there's a tendency to demonize jocks especially at a prestigious university.

i went to a small school that was *very* athletically inclined (for Div 3) and i was a swimmer. i was also able to slide very easily into more artistic/non-athletic circles due to always being sort of a floater, and i remember hearing lots of negative attitudes expressed towards "jocks" (many of whom had 1500 SATs and were getting into med school) or more derogatory, "assletes." i remember hearing, "oh, you're okay, you're not really an athlete," but i still thought of myself as one and took tremendous pride in my team's accomplishment (and woke up at 5:30am every morning in January to walk across the frozen tundra to early morning practice).

so i suppose the door swings both ways, that's all i'm trying to say.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 04-11-2006, 11:23 AM   #80
Blue Crack Addict
 
U2democrat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: England by way of 'Murica.
Posts: 22,140
Local Time: 12:12 AM
Regardless of what happens or who did it, I hope the woman gets help, she needs it. But that's stating the obvious.
__________________
U2democrat is offline  
Old 04-11-2006, 12:37 PM   #81
Blue Crack Distributor
 
Headache in a Suitcase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Stateless
Posts: 56,385
Local Time: 07:12 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
^ i agree with everything you've said, and to build off that a bit, i also think it's true that there's an expectation in place for jocks, and it's sometimes unfair and undeserved, and that there's a tendency to demonize jocks especially at a prestigious university.

i went to a small school that was *very* athletically inclined (for Div 3) and i was a swimmer. i was also able to slide very easily into more artistic/non-athletic circles due to always being sort of a floater, and i remember hearing lots of negative attitudes expressed towards "jocks" (many of whom had 1500 SATs and were getting into med school) or more derogatory, "assletes." i remember hearing, "oh, you're okay, you're not really an athlete," but i still thought of myself as one and took tremendous pride in my team's accomplishment (and woke up at 5:30am every morning in January to walk across the frozen tundra to early morning practice).

so i suppose the door swings both ways, that's all i'm trying to say.


this anti "jock" mentality that is being shown by some in this thread is silly, and often times misguided and/or inaccurate information.

ncaa athletes are held to a high standard accademicly. they have to have a minimum 2.0 GPA, or they can't play. yes, at the highest level of D1, in the sports that bring in the big bucks... i.e. football and basketball... athletes with supreme talent can "coast" through school... take for example the university of texas, where vince young, the team's star QB, scored at the level of an elementary school student in a basic IQ test after attending 4 years of college. at a school like duke, or notre dame, or stanford... you do not get into the school, no matter what your athletic talent, if you do not meet the minimum accademic standards set forth by the university. now would someone at the bottom of the list of accademicly eligible students get in over someone with better grades just because they're a superior athlete? yes... just like a student with lesser grades would get into a school with an esteemed music program if they were a vastly talented musician. a teammate of mine in high school... who had a 95+ average and a 1350 on the SATs played basketball at Yale, while his older brother... with a 106 weighted average and a 1500 on his SATs, was wait-listed at Yale (ironicly enough, he went to Duke instead, and is now doing his residency at Harvard).

as for the treatment of women, yes... male white athletes can objectify women. so do many male black athletes. so do many males... period. it's not a matter of what sport they play, or what hobbies they may have, it's a matter of how the environment in which they were raised that gives them this sense of entitlement. the fact that they play a sport is secondary. if they were given everything they've ever wanted throughout life, never heard the word "no" from their parents, then yes... they would be the pigheaded sexist pigs that, admitidley, are sprinkled throughout every walk of life. if the young student/athlete is raised with discipline in his/her life, punished when wrong is done, and taught to respect others, then this mistreatment of women and minorities likely won't happen.

painting all, or most, athletes... "jocks"... as sexist, racist pigs who feel they are entitled to everything just because they can play a game is just as absent minded as stereotyping any race, religion or other group for that matter.
__________________
Headache in a Suitcase is online now  
Old 04-11-2006, 01:01 PM   #82
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,475
Local Time: 07:12 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase
:a teammate of mine in high school... who had a 95+ average and a 1350 on the SATs played basketball at Yale, while his older brother... with a 106 weighted average and a 1500 on his SATs, was wait-listed at Yale (ironicly enough, he went to Duke instead, and is now doing his residency at Harvard).


what i always found interesting was that this was the source of much of the tension -- that athletes didn't "deserve" to be admitted, they just could run fast or swim fast or jump high. it is true that many athletes might not have been accepted without their athleticism, but what about legacies, minorities, musicians, published poets, etc.? why is athleticism perhaps regarded as a lesser ability than other non-academic traits that can help one gain acceptance into a prestigious university?

anyway, where i went to college, the men's and women's swim teams both had average GPA's in the high 3.3's, which was higher than the average GPA for the entire school, of course we were helped out by having a potential valedictorian on the team (who had over a 4.0, and is now doing nuclear physics research at Berkeley, and also makes close to 6 figures a year playing poker online)

i also think there's something to be said for the athlete who knows he isn't as academically talented as his peers in class, but busts his (or her) ass in the classroom just the way he/she busts his/her ass on the field. i think there's something to be learned from that.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 04-11-2006, 01:26 PM   #83
Refugee
 
stammer476's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,058
Local Time: 09:12 AM
I'd be curious to know what the relationship is between the pre-evidence conclusions of those in this thread and the amount of time they spent in team sports.

Just on first glance, there seems to be one.
__________________
stammer476 is offline  
Old 04-11-2006, 01:53 PM   #84
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,664
Local Time: 06:12 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by stammer476
I'd be curious to know what the relationship is between the pre-evidence conclusions of those in this thread and the amount of time they spent in team sports.

Just on first glance, there seems to be one.
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 04-11-2006, 02:26 PM   #85
Refugee
 
stammer476's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,058
Local Time: 09:12 AM
Sorry if that didn't come out right. It made sense in my head.

I was just wondering if people's assumptions to the guilt/innocence/lack of judgement of the players had anything to do with their history in team sports. Just curious, that's all.
__________________
stammer476 is offline  
Old 04-11-2006, 02:57 PM   #86
Blue Crack Overdose
Get me off the internetz!
 
Carek1230's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: wishing I was somewhere else....
Posts: 114,531
Local Time: 04:12 PM
All I will say is I hope the hype and publicity this issue gets in the media helps spread a message that such alleged activities, whether they happened or not, will not and should not be tolerated. Period. And I hope that something positive comes forth from this in some way.
__________________
Carek1230 is offline  
Old 04-11-2006, 05:56 PM   #87
Blue Crack Distributor
 
Headache in a Suitcase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Stateless
Posts: 56,385
Local Time: 07:12 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by stammer476
Sorry if that didn't come out right. It made sense in my head.

I was just wondering if people's assumptions to the guilt/innocence/lack of judgement of the players had anything to do with their history in team sports. Just curious, that's all.
i see where you're going with this, and all i can do is answer for myself.

my initial thought was neither of guilt nor innocence. it was simply to await the evidence. i didn't think they were innocent up until the DNA evidence came back negative.

there were, however, some questions that i thought of only because of my background in athletics... one in particular. i have never been on a team in my life where every single player liked each other. never. they may pretend to like each other, but there's always some deep rooted jelousy over playing time, etc... always. and i played basketball, where there's only 12-15 players on a team. we're talking here about a team of 46 players, who's entire season would be canceled if they did not come forward... yet still no one came forward. i find it very hard to believe that not a single player would come forward considering all that was at risk... let alone the straight forward human element. 46 people and not a single guilty conscience? come on...
__________________
Headache in a Suitcase is online now  
Old 04-11-2006, 09:09 PM   #88
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,557
Local Time: 07:12 PM
Rape or no rape, I'm guessing that lacrosse players being at a parties involving strippers is still a violation of their little student oathy thing or whatever. Not that I really care if that's how they want to spend their weekends, but it doesn't give Duke and points where "prestige" is concerned.

And no, I've not nothing against jocks in general since my fiance is a jock and I've never seen him disrespect a woman or a person of a different race.
__________________
Liesje is offline  
Old 04-11-2006, 09:11 PM   #89
Refugee
 
stammer476's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,058
Local Time: 09:12 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase
there were, however, some questions that i thought of only because of my background in athletics... one in particular. i have never been on a team in my life where every single player liked each other. never. they may pretend to like each other, but there's always some deep rooted jelousy over playing time, etc... always. and i played basketball, where there's only 12-15 players on a team. we're talking here about a team of 46 players, who's entire season would be canceled if they did not come forward... yet still no one came forward. i find it very hard to believe that not a single player would come forward considering all that was at risk... let alone the straight forward human element. 46 people and not a single guilty conscience? come on...
I was thinking the exact same thing. On the football teams I was on (a size comparable to a lacrosse team), I would flat out guarantee that someone would have broken the silence. You just can't get that many people to agree to a lie under that much pressure.

But then again, people never cease to surprise me.
__________________
stammer476 is offline  
Old 04-11-2006, 09:17 PM   #90
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,557
Local Time: 07:12 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

what i always found interesting was that this was the source of much of the tension -- that athletes didn't "deserve" to be admitted, they just could run fast or swim fast or jump high. it is true that many athletes might not have been accepted without their athleticism, but what about legacies, minorities, musicians, published poets, etc.? why is athleticism perhaps regarded as a lesser ability than other non-academic traits that can help one gain acceptance into a prestigious university?
GREAT point, Irvine! I know it's kind of off-topic, but I can sort of relate. At my school, if you come in from HS with a 3.8+ GPA and then maintain a 3.5+ GPA during college, you get an academic scholarship worth $3500 a year. However, if you're skin is brown or black (you can even be adopted and raised by the same white, Dutch, Christian Reformed community just like everyone else) and have only a 2.5 GPA, you still get $3500. I've never been able to understand affirmative action. To me it seems more like self-handicapping. I worked my ass off in highschool pulling a 3.9 at the best private school available. My friend was already flunking out of classes in high school, but since she was adopted from Bangladesh at 7 weeks of age, she got a bigger scholarship, which she ended up wasting because she couldn't pass any college classes first semester.

I think there should definitely be an academic standard for athletes, especially ones receiving scholarships (thankfully my D3 school doesn't give athletic scholarhsips). Being able to participate on a team is a privilege that is earned, not a right that is deserved. However I do agree that it is unfair to single out athletes as having an easier time getting admitted and better access to financial aid when I've seen this happen to my friends just because they were adopted from Bangladesh or Korea.
__________________

__________________
Liesje is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:12 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com