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Old 04-11-2007, 02:10 PM   #136
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Originally posted by anitram
The bottom line to me is that there is a difference between decriminalizing certain drugs (which I support) and the state providing all drugs to the public at a profit (which I don't support for a hundred different reasons).

Edited for clarity.
I think that we can both agree against the state providing recreational drugs to it's citizens.
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Old 04-11-2007, 02:24 PM   #137
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I think that we can both agree against the state providing recreational drugs to it's citizens.
So Huxley was wrong? The State will not hand out Soma.
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Old 04-11-2007, 02:47 PM   #138
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I don't think that should be the domain of the state, but I also think that criminalising drug use is where the state tramples freedom of thought.
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Old 04-11-2007, 09:25 PM   #139
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Did the black market for alcohol remain the same after the lift of prohibition?
No. The "black market" for alcohol did pretty much disappear with prohibition (except in "dry" counties), but for the most part, alcohol is alcohol. I've already pointed out that there are various alcoholic drinks that are of different levels of potency (beer/wine/champagne < Jaegermeister, Pure Grain Alcohol, etc.), but for the most part, drinks containing alcohol will have a general association of side effects and dangerous. The variety of drugs people want legalized have a much broader range of dangers and side effects.

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Old 04-12-2007, 11:23 AM   #140
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Originally posted by U2Bama


No. The "black market" for alcohol did pretty much disappear with prohibition (except in "dry" counties), but for the most part, alcohol is alcohol. I've already pointed out that there are various alcoholic drinks that are of different levels of potency (beer/wine/champagne < Jaegermeister, Pure Grain Alcohol, etc.), but for the most part, drinks containing alcohol will have a general association of side effects and dangerous. The variety of drugs people want legalized have a much broader range of dangers and side effects.

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I think this is where your argument starts to crumble. You constatly talk about how people will still want the non regulated drugs because they will be "more fun" but the same can be said for alcohol as well. But I don't see a bad moonshine or absinthe problem here in the states.
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Old 04-12-2007, 11:34 PM   #141
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All alcohol was legalized (in most states and counties). Alcohol generally has the same effects across the board, and the severity of effects usually vary based on higher proof or consumption or lower tolerance for the consumer. As I stated in my previous post, the effects of the broad variety of drugs people want legalized vary in a much broader spectrum.

Consider this: what percentage of alcohol users are negatively affected by their consumption of alcohol? What percentage of meth users are negatively affected by their use of meth? What percentage of cocaine users are negatively affected by their use of cocaine? Is there "casual use" of a drug like meth? Well a Miller Lite version of it be enough for the people who have the addictive drive of today's street meth? I do not know the scientific answers to these questions; I am just putting them out there for consideration and discussion.

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Old 04-12-2007, 11:44 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Bama
All alcohol was legalized (in most states and counties). Alcohol generally has the same effects across the board, and the severity of effects usually vary based on higher proof or consumption or lower tolerance for the consumer. As I stated in my previous post, the effects of the broad variety of drugs people want legalized vary in a much broader spectrum.
This isn't true. There are alcoholic drinks such as absinthe that are suppose to be more hallucienegentic.


Quote:
Originally posted by U2Bama

Consider this: what percentage of alcohol users are negatively affected by their consumption of alcohol? What percentage of meth users are negatively affected by their use of meth? What percentage of cocaine users are negatively affected by their use of cocaine? Is there "casual use" of a drug like meth? Well a Miller Lite version of it be enough for the people who have the addictive drive of today's street meth? I do not know the scientific answers to these questions; I am just putting them out there for consideration and discussion.

~U2Alabama
I think the fairer question to ask is what percentage of alcoholics are negatively affected, and what percentage of addicts are negatively affected? If we're going to compare apples to apples, then compare addicts to addicts and casual users to casual drinkers.

Well they may not make the news but yes there are casual meth users. But once again to be fair and compare apples to apples compare meth to moonshine or bathtub gin...
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Old 04-12-2007, 11:46 PM   #143
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You keep bringing it back to methamphetamine, what of thinks like ergine, codeine or ephedrine; different bar of harm - different threshold.

Hallucinogens are interesting.
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Old 04-12-2007, 11:58 PM   #144
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I am not familiar with absinthe. What other psychoactive effects does it have? Is it potent and unpredictable enough to kill a person with one shot, as could one bad hit of acid?

Regarding the second part of your response, I am of the view that addiction is in iteself a negative effect, so asking "what percentage of alcoholics/addicts are negatively affected" answers itself...all of them.



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Old 04-13-2007, 12:06 AM   #145
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
You keep bringing it back to methamphetamine, what of thinks like ergine, codeine or ephedrine; different bar of harm - different threshold.

Hallucinogens are interesting.
They may be interesting, but my concerns with the three you mentioned are their potential side effects on the user and what that can do to non-interested parties whom the user may encounter. Ephedrine is most popular int his market as a component in drug coctails, which numerous risk factors for a quick thrill. Ergine and ephedrine individually run the risk of panic and hostility in the user, which can obviously affect those around him or her. Codeine is an opiate and can be addictive or at least habit-forming. The depressing post-high of this type of opiate may not affect anyone other than the user, so I guess that is only the user's problem. I would not ride in a car with anyone on codeine.

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Old 04-13-2007, 12:07 AM   #146
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Bad acid did Tricky Dick warn you about that one?

LSD is taken such small ammounts it cannot give you an overdose (there are no well documented and verified cases of an LSD overdose and anybody using it in any reasonable ammount cannot die from the LSD; now hallucinating and falling down a flight of stairs thats another matter but no different than if you were shit faced).

Also worth pointing out that the ammounts are so small that you can't become addicted; and nor would you want to given the nature of the drug.
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Old 04-13-2007, 12:17 AM   #147
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What I find interesting is that when it's drugs that have tradition such as caffeine, nicotine and alcohol there is one set of rules and for drugs that don't it suddenly becomes wrong to manually alter your brain chemistry. It isn't the drugs that make people act like bastards, maybe only those without anybody or with self control should be allowed free thought.
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Old 04-13-2007, 01:32 AM   #148
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i never thought i'd see the day intelligent people claim support for south east asia's drug handling.
You took the words right out of my mouth! *i'm in total dis-belief!*
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Old 04-14-2007, 12:39 AM   #149
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Bad acid did Tricky Dick warn you about that one?
No; an elementary school friend of mine lost a friend to this experience in high school.

Quote:
LSD is taken such small ammounts it cannot give you an overdose (there are no well documented and verified cases of an LSD overdose and anybody using it in any reasonable ammount cannot die from the LSD; now hallucinating and falling down a flight of stairs thats another matter but no different than if you were shit faced).
Even in small amounts, due to the chemical formula of LSD, the variations of dosage can vary and be unpredictable. Talking about people using it "in any reasonable amount" is putting a lot of trust int he typical drug user. Keep in mind, the Grateful Dead and Widespread Panic are two of my favorite bands. Since high school, I've been around enough LSD and people using it to know that its effects on people can vary greatly from person to person. And I know it's not addictive. The risks may be remote; some random tripper may have a psychotic trip or flashback, but that won't necessarily harm him or her. Now that user may harm someone they encounter, but that is their own damn problem.


Quote:
Also worth pointing out that the ammounts are so small that you can't become addicted; and nor would you want to given the nature of the drug.
A guy I went to high school with took seven hits one night, so the "small amounts" deficit can easily be overcome. He later took hits off of one of those green canister-tanks of freon. he died later that night.

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Old 04-14-2007, 12:49 AM   #150
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
What I find interesting is that when it's drugs that have tradition such as caffeine, nicotine and alcohol there is one set of rules and for drugs that don't it suddenly becomes wrong to manually alter your brain chemistry. It isn't the drugs that make people act like bastards, maybe only those without anybody or with self control should be allowed free thought.
I can think of several very nice, respectable people that I know personally who act like bastards when they sit around and drink all day.

I can also think of several very nice, respectable peole that I know personally who act like goofy bafoons after they take a few tokes of of a joint.

Cocaine, meth, and heroin/opiates can cause aggressive hostile beghavior in users; again, this may not be a problem for the users themselves, only those whom they encounter.

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