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Old 10-05-2003, 02:48 AM   #16
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I've been listening -- rather frequently -- since 1988, so if you're arguing from experience, my experience trumps yours.

(I have seen the argument that the fact I'm an actual listener somehow disqualifies my opinion -- as if the only people who could judge what this guy says are those who don't actually examine it in any great detail. I think that argument's insane.)

I'm moving away from my point, so I'll move back. Other than humor that is tame compared to Comedy Central, I'm quite sure I don't know of anything that Rush has said that even the most the sensitive soul would consider hateful after a moment's rational thought.

Can you give me an example of what you're talking about? And, in doing so, keep this in mind:

Ridiculing an extremist feminist organization (an organization that merits ridicule) is not equivalent to demeaning women. Ridiculing a radical civil rights group (a group whose support of differentiating between the races is galling) is not equivalent to demeaning blacks.

If such things were equivalent, then ridiculing the KKK is racist because it demeans white people, and that's obviously absurd.

Rush has consistently ridiculed the NOW and the NAACP, calling the former the NAGs (the National Association of Gals) and the latter the NAALCP (the National Association for the Advancement of Liberal Colored People). But ridiculing these organizations is not equivalent to demean the groups whose interests they claim to represent.

Can you point to some specific statement in which Rush actually demeans women in general or some race in general?

If you say you don't remember, fine, but I question someone who's confident that a guy's a bigot when he can't remember what the supposed bigot actually said. (To use two examples from the sporting world, many people still remember the gist of what Jimmy the Greek and Rocker said.) And the Internet's an awfully big place. If Rush actually has said or written something that demean all women or all members of a specific race, surely some of his many enemies would have documented it. Find that documentation.

Otherwise, I'm just going to assume that you're offended that someone would dare question the canon of political correctness -- and to do so in a national forum and to do so with such confidence. You only think such an act is sexist, racist, etc.

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Old 10-05-2003, 01:19 PM   #17
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I wouldn't wish drug addiction on my worst enemy. I ran into it when I worked in a hospital, and it was one of the reasons I quit. Even reading the damn charts in the medical records office (I had almost no patient contact) was too much. I have never liked Rush, but I hope he can beat this.
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Old 10-05-2003, 01:29 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lewis Black
Ridiculing an extremist feminist organization (an organization that merits ridicule) is not equivalent to demeaning women. Ridiculing a radical civil rights group (a group whose support of differentiating between the races is galling) is not equivalent to demeaning blacks.

If such things were equivalent, then ridiculing the KKK is racist because it demeans white people, and that's obviously absurd.
Please...give an example of such an "extremist feminist organization" and a "radical civil rights group" that deserves equivalence to the Ku Klux Klan, an obvious hate group.

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Old 10-05-2003, 01:55 PM   #19
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This is the comparison I'm making:

The KKK focuses on a single demographic: whites.

The NAACP focuses on a single demographic: blacks.

The NOW focuses on a single demographic: women.

Impugning the KKK isn't racist even though it focuses on a single race. Likewise, impugning the NAACP isn't racist per se, nor is impugning the NOW sexist per se.

The KKK certainly deserves to be impugned. We can certainly debate whether the NAACP and the NOW deserve to be impugned -- and whether either merits criticism to the same degree the Klan does. But, either way, Rush criticizing the NAACP and the NOW is not immediate proof that he's a racist or a sexist, nor are such criticisms examples of him maligning blacks or women.

Scarletwine said, "He has demeaned women for years as well as minorities. "

For the life of me, I can't think of what Rush has said that would be evidence of such a claim -- much less anything said repeatedly "for years."

The closest thing is impugning the NOW and the NAACP. I'm simply saying that impugning the NOW and the NAACP is not equivalent to "demeaning women and minorities."

This sort of observation should be obvious.

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Old 10-05-2003, 02:37 PM   #20
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Your suggestion was that if criticising the NAACP makes one a racist, then criticising the KKK must also make one a racist. However those two organisations aren't comparable: whether you agree or disagree with the NAACP, nobody would claim it's a hate group like the KKK which has instigated decades of violence and bigotry.
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Old 10-05-2003, 02:41 PM   #21
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And I really hope you weren't suggesting that NOW and NAACP deserve the same level of criticism as the KKK. We all know what the KKK stand for, we all know the sort of vile bigotry they believe in. Even if you dislike, for instance, the NAACP's views on affirmative action, you can't equate them with a group which has advocated such horrendous violence against Black people.
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Old 10-05-2003, 03:58 PM   #22
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The KKK was behind twenty-plus African-American church bombings in my home town, Birmingham, Alabama, between WWII and the most infamous of church bombings, Sixteenth Street Baptist in September of 1963. They were also involved in the murder of a Catholic priest on the grounds of the local cathedral, St. Paul's, back in the '20's. When I was a catechumen, on the way to becoming a Catholic 15 years ago, I was shown the scene of the crime. This is what the KKK was and is all about, hatred, violence, bigotry..........it's not accurate to compare the NAACP and NOW to the KKK.
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Old 10-05-2003, 04:46 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lewis Black
This is the comparison I'm making:

The KKK focuses on a single demographic: whites.

The NAACP focuses on a single demographic: blacks.

The NOW focuses on a single demographic: women.



There is a HUGE difference in an organization established to fight for equal rights for groups of people who were at one time denied the most basic civil rights (women and blacks) and one whose sole purpose is to rid the earth of all races they feel are inferior (non-white Christians). The NAACP and NOW use activism and boycots to get their points across...the KKK uses violence, hatred and at times murder.
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Old 10-05-2003, 04:50 PM   #24
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Somehow....Mr. Black has lost me on that last point as well.
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Old 10-05-2003, 04:59 PM   #25
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Yes, I think Mr. Black has lost all of us on that point.

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Old 10-05-2003, 07:17 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lewis Black
I've been listening -- rather frequently -- since 1988, so if you're arguing from experience, my experience trumps yours.

Can you give me an example of what you're talking about? And, in doing so, keep this in mind:

If it weren't for my horse...
You're experience does "trump" mine I'm sure. Although I fail to see how it's possible to know when or how long I tuned into his show. Anyway, I can't tell you when - exactly - it was that I had heard enough of what he had to say and quit listening. and it's doesn't matter what I give as an example, you will try to refute or dispute it. then want more examples. Therefore I'm not inclined to argue about it. You will not change my opinion of him nor am I trying to change yours. His opinions/statements just don't mean enough to me to do any research on specifics.
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Old 10-05-2003, 07:26 PM   #27
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Let's ignore what I said about the KKK for a moment and focus on the NAACP and the NOW:

Does criticizing the NAACP make you a racist?

Does criticizing the NOW make you a sexist?

No, and no.

Yet, in terms of comments the demean women and minorities, the closest Rush Limbaugh has ever come -- as far as I can remember -- is criticizing those two organizations.

Can someone point to an actual damning comment or two?

It's easy to find what John Rocker said that was so offensive. What about Rush? I really want to know what he's specifically said that's so damnably offensive.


Returning to the comparison to the KKK, of course the Klan is more violent and hate-filled than the NAACP. That's why I didn't suggest they were comparable in terms of violence or hate.

What I said was that they're comparable in that they focus on one demographic. That's undeniable if you look at what the acronyms "NAACP" and "NOW" stand for.

It's not sexist to impugn an organization devoted to one particular sex, regardless of which sex that is.

It's not racist to impugn an organization devoted to one particular race, regardless of what race that is.


Bono's American Wife, I grant that the NAACP was founded with the goal of achieving equality among the races. With its now constant support of quotas, it seems to have a new goal.


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Old 10-05-2003, 07:47 PM   #28
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An old article from June 7, 2000 that seemingly is relevant right now...

Limbaugh: A Color Man Who Has A Problem With Color?
by Jeff Cohen and Steve Rendall

Talk radio host Rush Limbaugh may be returning to television. He recently auditioned for a job as color commentator on ABC's "Monday Night Football." The tryout followed weeks of self-promotion by the self-styled "truth detector" to the millions who listen daily to his syndicated radio show on some 600 stations.

Limbaugh's audition is stirring controversy. Sports columnist Thomas Boswell quipped that if Limbaugh joins "Monday Night Football" then baseball's game of the week broadcasters might "team up with John Rocker."

Veteran sports writer Michael Wilbon, who is black, indicated a boycott might result: "If Rush Limbaugh is put in that booth, I will NOT listen to the broadcast," he wrote in a Washington Post chat session. "His views on people like me are well documented and I would find it insulting and hypocritical to watch him…There are tens of thousands, probably hundreds of thousands who feel the same way I do."

If ABC hires Limbaugh, it's not clear a boycott will materialize. What is clear is that his expressed views on racial matters -- from the spiteful to the sophomoric -- would make him an odd color commentator. Indeed, CBS Sports dismissed Jimmy the Greek Snyder for ignorant racial remarks, less derisive than some of Limbaugh's.

As a young broadcaster in the 1970s, Limbaugh once told a black caller: "Take that bone out of your nose and call me back." A decade ago, after becoming nationally syndicated, he mused on the air: "Have you ever noticed how all composite pictures of wanted criminals resemble Jesse Jackson?"

In 1992, on his now-defunct TV show, Limbaugh expressed his ire when Spike Lee urged that black schoolchildren get off from school to see his film Malcolm X: "Spike, if you're going to do that, let's complete the education experience. You should tell them that they should loot the theater, and then blow it up on their way out."

In a similar vein, here is Limbaugh's mocking take on the NAACP, a group with a ninety-year commitment to nonviolence: "The NAACP should have riot rehearsal. They should get a liquor store and practice robberies."

When Carol Moseley-Braun (D-IL) was in the U.S. Senate, the first black woman ever elected to that body, Limbaugh would play the "Movin' On Up" theme song from TV's "Jeffersons" when he mentioned her. Limbaugh sometimes still uses mock dialect -- substituting "ax" for "ask"-- when discussing black leaders.

Such quotes and antics -- many compiled by Fairness & Accuracy In Reporting (FAIR) for our 1995 book -- offer a whiff of Limbaugh's racial sensibility. So does his claim that racism in America "is fueled primarily by the rantings and ravings" of people like Jesse Jackson. Or his ugly reference two years ago to the father of Madonna's first child, a Latino, as "a gang-member type guy" -- an individual with no gang background.

In 1994, Limbaugh mocked St. Louis for building a rail line to East St. Louis "where nobody goes." East St. Louis is home to roughly 40,000 residents -- 98 percent of whom are African-Americans. One of its 40,000 "nobodies" is star NFL linebacker Bryan Cox.

Once, in response to a caller arguing that black people need to be heard, Limbaugh responded: "They are 12 percent of the population. Who the hell cares?" That's not an unusual response for a talk radio host playing to an audience of "angry white males." It may not play so well among National Football League players, 70 percent of whom are African American.

Compared to some talk radio hosts, racism is not central to Rush Limbaugh's shtick. But there has been a pattern of commentary indicating his willingness to exploit prejudice against blacks to further his on-air arguments.

ABC has the right to hire Limbaugh, even at the risk of alienating members of its audience. ("Monday Night Football" is the second-most watched TV show in black households). Thrust into the world of pro football where Limbaugh himself would be something of a racial minority, is it possible that he'd rise above his history of racial bigotry and insensitivity? Not likely.

When all is said and done, the athletes are the key players on "Monday Night Football." It would be great to know how they'd feel about a color man who seems to have trouble with people of color.

Melon
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Old 10-05-2003, 07:59 PM   #29
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i did ignore your kkk comparision, btw

Quote:
Once, in response to a caller arguing that black people need to be heard, Limbaugh responded: "They are 12 percent of the population. Who the hell cares?"



"Have you ever noticed how all composite pictures of wanted criminals resemble Jesse Jackson?"


lewis,


please give me your defense / explanation of these remarks?
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Old 10-05-2003, 09:04 PM   #30
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The one thing I hate about quotes....they are isolated from the context of the conversation.
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