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Old 09-20-2004, 06:44 PM   #31
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Quote:
“Saddam Hussein was a brutal dictator who deserves his own special place in hell,” he added. “But that was not, in itself, a reason to go to war. The satisfaction we take in his downfall does not hide this fact: We have traded a dictator for a chaos that has left America less secure.”
No, that is the flip-flop. This is an imbecilic statement that just goes to show Kerry is an Isolationist appeaser. Willing to leave Saddam in power and have price of peace payed with hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqi civilians. More Iraqi's died under Clintons watch than Bush, Kerry would have prefered to run that same game of innefective sanctions, turning a blind eye to the corruption with his "allies" and leaving a threat to the region in place until it eventuated or collapsed on its own creating even greater chaos. I don't like this one bit.
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Old 09-20-2004, 08:26 PM   #32
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Here is the original Kerry quote against Dean
Quote:
"those who believe we are not safer with [Saddam Hussein's] capture don't have the judgment to be president or the credibility to be elected president."
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Old 09-20-2004, 09:08 PM   #33
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LOL... Kerry just needs to stick to message.... post-war, healthcare, uncertain economy... He's giving the republicans every chance to bring down his (Kerry) own campaign... ridiculous.

All these mincing of words and contradictions just reinforces the Republican description of him as a flip-flopper. I thought he wanted undecided votes. LOL
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Old 09-20-2004, 09:46 PM   #34
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I like this bit
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"The principles that should guide American policy in Iraq now and in the future are clear: we must make Iraq the world's responsibility, because the world has a stake in the outcome and others should share the burden."
The man is no JFK.
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"We shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty."
I think that these two quotes demonstrate the destruction of Liberalism in the United States. Before leaders were willing to fight to preserve and spread liberty in order to defeat an authoritarian foe (the Soviet Union) but today it seems to be a case of abandoning the cause of liberty and freedom so that you don't offend despots. A pity really because if JFK were alive today he would be a Neo-Con.
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Old 09-21-2004, 04:00 AM   #35
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Anne, for you it may explain it.....for me it may explain it......for NB it may explain it.....but it is NOT the message most Americans get.

He did a GREAT JOB explaining it on Letterman last night. It was in plain English, that the average voter would get.

My thread was not, is not, about nitpicking. Through my eyes, this campaign has got to be one of the crummiest run.

And Wanderer, even though you do not like him, and I agree with your points, what advice would you offer. You know he flip flopped, and others may agree with you, but I really hoped this would be more of a what would it take for him to turn the ship around thread.

Peace
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Old 09-21-2004, 04:03 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Here is the original Kerry quote against Dean
As for Kerry's quote about Iraq....in reference to Dean

The date of the quote was 12/16/2003. Iraq looked quite different last December.

I think the current State of Iraq allows for some change of opinion.
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Old 09-21-2004, 04:14 AM   #37
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Quite, I wouldn't offer him any other advice than sticking to his guns. The situation in Iraq could be turned against Bush very well if Kerry was able to attack Bush for his decisions without looking like a dupe (if he says he was lied to by Bush but would still support the invasion it makes him look incompetent). He has started to give some difference here. If he can play off without coming off totally negatively and can adequately make the case to go via the United Nations then he could do nicely. Either way by sitting on the fence he doesn't make friends on either side, take a stand on an issue and really ram it home to people - get them to realize why you must be president more than the other guy. So Kerry should stick to his guns on Iraq and get this entire Vietnam debacle off the table, that has nothing to do with this campaign and by trying to play up an area where you are venerable the perception of him has been weakened. Also playing to the ABB (Anybody But Bush) crowd does him no good because that alone will not sway undecided voters, it is preaching to the converted so to speak. Also (so many also's) get the Democrats to stop attacking Nader, by attacking Nader in a most undemocratic fashion it reflects negatively on them and may hurt them come election day. I guess that is about it, my offer to offer a toast to whoever wins after the election still stands - the wheel never stops turning, life will go on.
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Old 09-21-2004, 04:16 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
He did a GREAT JOB explaining it on Letterman last night. It was in plain English, that the average voter would get.

My thread was not, is not, about nitpicking. Through my eyes, this campaign has got to be one of the crummiest run.

I wish I saw Letterman.

Dread, I wasn't implying that I thought you were nitpicking. My comment was directed to nbc. Sorry, nbc - but sometimes your one line slams without much to it have been a little grating - and I was asking Dread if Kerry's comments about congress voting for Iraq fit the criteria he was looking for.
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Old 09-21-2004, 06:57 AM   #39
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He was indeed crystal clear on Letterman!!!!! It was close to perfect.

He did not sound like he was flip flopping. The political machine he is up against, however, is not going to let it go. He needs to speak plain, I am not intellectually superior to you, English.
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Old 09-21-2004, 07:15 AM   #40
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it must be the work of a great campaign strategist that we all consider Kerry to equal to flip-flopping unless he proves the opposite

I haven't even heard or read a full speech of the man and all I know is that he is a flip-flopper
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Old 09-21-2004, 07:22 AM   #41
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Salome is correct. Karl Rove is a genius. Evil genius to some people...
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Old 09-21-2004, 07:26 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


As for Kerry's quote about Iraq....in reference to Dean

The date of the quote was 12/16/2003. Iraq looked quite different last December.

I think the current State of Iraq allows for some change of opinion.

Not that much of a change... I can understand quotes from maybe like 10-15 years ago but this was less than a year ago. Also, Kerry's quote about still giving the President authority is too much mincing of words if not another "flip-flop."
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Old 09-21-2004, 09:23 AM   #43
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Maybe I need to clarify, and please note, I am stunned to be defending Kerry here.

The situation in Iraq is indeed dramatically different from when he made that quote running against Dean. At the time, rebuilding was in its infancy and there was still hope that we would be doing a better job at it than we are(PLease note I am not knocking what we have done). We are losing more AMerican lives and there are more attacks NOW than there was in December. The past months have really shed light into the "PLAN" or lack there of.

I would also like to see the whole context of the quote in the context of the debate, because, I have never heard any candidate say Iraq was better off with Saddam. Are Americans better off without Saddam? Are our soldiers better off with the direction we are taking or is another direction the wiser choice.

Taking that quote and mixing it here would in my mind be two different issues.
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Old 09-21-2004, 10:44 AM   #44
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Pat Buchanan stated that it was a bad idea to go into Iraq around that time. He's stated that Iraq would be another Lebanon. Joe Biden pointed out issues about post-war problems (potential) if the US went to war, right before the war. Hell, we have arguments from Gulf War 1 on why it might be a bad idea to dispose of Hussein. Kerry was aware of those issues (or should have been considering his foreign policy credentials) but he voted for war anyways (LOL at authority for war mincing). Kerry was very, very hawkish towards Iraq prior to his campaign (he wrote it out for all to read). During the Democratic primary, he showcased himself as a democratic hawk, even saying Hussein himself was threat (at a time when the war looked good and Bush looked good from a successful war). To now go against what he said after the fact makes him look ridiculous.

Kerry can change his mind. Hell. Bush has changed his mind on issues. However, he is feeding the Rove campaign machine and just makes himself look worst when he does make statements that make him look like a waffler.

Sure... last year, the situation in Iraq was seemingly better and more hopeful but the dangers were there and the evidence of a potential post-war quagmire was there. Policy must take into consideration potential hazards. Seems like Kerry probably didn't consider it when he made his vote. So now that things appear like they are going really bad, Kerry goes off and says, "Oh I would never have gone into Iraq, now," makes him look like a putz. Well, duh! It looks bad now, Mr. Kerry but you should have taken into consideration the potential issues of insurgency and terror in Iraq at the time you made a vote. The potential problems were always there.


This is the one thing that pisses me off about Iraq... not enough people cared to think through post-war issues - Dems and Repubs...
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Old 09-21-2004, 12:14 PM   #45
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I wish Joe Biden were running. He reminds me of McCain in a way.
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