Dove Campaign For Real Beauty

[Lemonfix]

I think we have two extremes going on here in America. We have those that are starving themselves in order to be the skinniest they can be. But we also have many who are trying to make unhealthy obesity considered "normal".

Totally agree. While I love this ad I don't want to see "normal" women in ads if "normal" is someone who is overweight and unhealthy, that just sets a bad example. Americans on average are getting more and more obese and just because that is the new norm does not mean we should accept that as okay. This ad is effective because the women all look healthy and fit for their body type.

 

[For Honor]

I think we have two extremes going on here in America. We have those that are starving themselves in order to be the skinniest they can be. But we also have many who are trying to make unhealthy obesity considered "normal".

BINGO!!!

 

[For Honor]

The women of Japan have the highest levels of dissatisfaction at 59 percent

That's not right...(edit - as in "Japanese women are hot")
I wonder why that is, must be something cultural. Aren't a lot of super models from Brazil, too? No offense to the USA, but traditional definition of beauty has been scarred too much, and a lot of what America calls beautiful I find unatractive or disgusting. And as far as Japan goes, they've got some of the best looking women in the world. Aren't they really healthy over there, too, as a culture in Japan?
(pardon my simplistic thought process here)
I wonder if there is a relationoship with being concerned with health, and their thoughts about beauty. A lot of women, here in the US, are concerned with beauty, but don't give a rat's ass about health. And then they wonder why they look the way I do.

Natural is beatiful
But healthy is beautiful

Someone who takes the time to make healthy decisions and watches their weight shows me there are a considerate and caring person. I could go on and on about that, but I won't


I know someone who is obese, and I can't bear to watch them eat. He's killing himself with food......

And that's not beautiful

 

[BonosSaint]

Re: Re: Dove Campaign For Real Beauty

Someone who takes the time to make healthy decisions and watches their weight shows me there are a considerate and caring person. I could go on and on about that, but I won't.

Not getting into the other points of this interesting thread, but what is this correlation? Go on a little more about it.

 

[For Honor]

Re: Re: Re: Dove Campaign For Real Beauty

Not getting into the other points of this interesting thread, but what is this correlation? Go on a little more about it.

Now, this is only personally speaking.
I repeat - only talking about myself here.


You cannot ever judge a book by it's cover. I know and accept that, and I'm sure everyone has at least heard that saying before.

But the point I see, is this - if someone takes part in an healthy life style- exercise, eating right, healthy decisions about alcohal and other drugs, about who they associate with, about various things

such a person, say, as a woman - I'd look at that woman (considering she had a number of other traits that I find attractive/beneficial) and say - "Hey, she has a lot of good character traits". And for me, that would make me a whole lot more interested in the woman. And as a potential wife (perhaps), I'd think about how she would pass on those traits for our children, and even, how those traits that she has would influence our kids.

Personally speaking, I can't date anyone who indulges in drugs. I mean, I respect peoples' freedoms. But I have my freedom as to waht I want to be exposed to, too. And I've been exposed to a lot already in my life. I always listen to people, but when it comes to who I involve deeply in my life, I'm really selective. And time and time again, in my life, for me, it has been proven that you really do have to be careful about who you let into your deepest inner circle. Again, this is in regards to my own feelings about things.

---

Now, let me get back on track, more so.



"Someone who takes the time to make healthy decisions and watches their weight shows me (they are) a considerate and caring person. I could go on and on about that, but I won't."

Well, now I will.


This isn't a blanket statement. It is one observation I make, along with many others, to try to understand a person.

First, let's look at the opposite.
Someone who does not make healthy decisions nor watches their weight.

On a "first glance" level, that is ugly to me.
(Not superficial, not just looks, but more than that. First glance, as in, overall initial impression, how one presents themselves to me). If you do not care enough about yourself to make healthy decisions - how can you make healthy decisions for me/involving me?

(conceited? Perhaps. But hey, that's a priority in my life. For me, I despise being unhealty and indulging in physically harmful things. But that;s me, and I only speak for myself in this thread)

It may indicate that you are lazy. Maybe it just isn't that high a priority to watch out for yourself, or maybe you like to sit around all day and watch TV or read or something. Again, not attractive for me. I'm the biggest homebody in the world, but I am always watching what I eat, and make an effort to stay in shape.

Sometimes it shows how one gives into instant gratification. For those people who eat "because if feels good" or get high on drugs "because it feels good" or because they want an escape, then you have no pity from me. Now, there are people who get high and manage themselves fine. That's great, but that's great for them, and not for me.

I may come off as being a bit stuck up or something, but that's fine with me. I have my standards and stuff, and that's just me. I don't impose them upon any one else, unless they ask me to. I spend a lot of time observing people...

---------------------------------------------

Now, you could say someone who spends hours at the gym is obsessed with looks and themselves. Conceited, and only care about how they look, or who they can impress. Sure, that may be the case. You could say a number of things - - someone who has an eating disorder - sure, I wouldn't want them to pass on their huge fascination with weight, or unhealthy lifestyle to my kids. BUt that's just it, I wouldn't substitute a rockin bod for someone who destroys themself for it.

But like I said, weight apperance is one in many tools to define a person. It's a peice to the puzzle that they are, or are not.



And, one of my last comments -
I find women beautiful.
And the same thing I find unattractive for women are what I find repelling for men - I do not have double standards

I don't really care the size of a woman to determine overal "potential" or attractiveness. (in reality, I believe being good looking is an advantage, though. But when it comes to me, I have lots of stories about how looks don't mean that much to me. But I'll save those for later). I have preferences, as all men do. If you can't accept that, then you don't live in the real world. But I'm sure everyone understands how that goes. For me, preferences are one thing, but preferences are luxuries. My neccesities are what I go by, and I understand also that there is no perfect woman, nor do I expect one, because I sure as hell am not perfect. I have no problem stating that. But I try to be flexible about things to - compromise ("it's not a dirty word").


True beauty is always in the eyes of the beholder. There is no universal definition of beauty - I am remembering victorian era paintings of women (crudely) that one might call whales these days.

But anyway, the soul of anything is the most important as far as I go. I know someone who isn't incredibly smart, nor has the ideal body. But she has a wonderful, amazing soul, and if she were younger, (she's 40 and I'm 18), and things were different, I would actually consider marring her. Her heart and soul are some of the purest I've ever seen, and the way she expresses her love is amazing.

Also on my neccesity list - values and morals. The lady above has both, and huge amounts of them.

I like people who know how to use their minds, and like to keep themselved informed, but inteligence is felixible.



But.... can you see a correlation - values to lifestlye to physical health?

There are a number of webs to draw it, relate physical well being to caring and consideration. You can relate it to other things, too. But it is just one small indicator, and not a key factor, for me anyway.

- - - - -

Ending with a tangent.............

I think the female body is one of the most beautiful things in the world, if not the most. The sun and the moon and stars and the sky are tops, along with nature. And women are naturally beautiful, so they are all related a little.

Regardless, the most beautiful thing to me is seeing a woman smile. More so, a woman who is smiling purely, genuienly, because she is pleased.

And that almost isn't a physical thing.
You can see it in anyone, male or female, in their eyes.


==========
==========
==========
Okay, I guess I got a little carried away there....

To conclude:

Not getting into the other points of this interesting thread, but what is this correlation? Go on a little more about it.

Someone who takes care of themselves is more capable of taking care of others than someone who does not take care of themselves.

If you want me to answer the question:
"How does staying physically fit relate to being a caring and considerate person towards others?"

It doesn't.
Like I said, someone's weight and physical apperance is only one factor in many I use when understanding/observing a person).

It may show that the person is considerate in regards to themselves, as opposed to someone who doesn't care and eats sweets all day long just because they taste good, etc.
It may reveal that someone cares about themselves if they take the time to stay fit, and that may directly or indirectly influence others to share a similar healthy lifestyle. As in, if someone eats healthy foods, that person may be inclined to encourage healthy food eating to others.


one of the best examples I've got is considering a spouse.
I mean, really - would you want your spouse to promote a lot of unhealthy activities? You are what you do. And yeah, some of this may be harsh, but I don't have any double standards. And, it's me, and not anyone else, which I accept.



If my fiancee gained a lot of weight months before our marriage, would I reconsider?

No way in hell.

If I would consider marrying someone, I must have seen a beautiful soul. A loving, beautiful person from the inside out. And she would know that I'd be there no matter what, since that is another personality trait of mine.

Would I divorce someone over weight issues?

No way in hell
But I would sure be with them everystep of the way until she got her weight back down to a safe and healthy number. I prefer to live healthy and such, and whoever would be my wife would certainly know this, and probably expect me to support them in maintaining a healthy lifestyle. Hopefully, that would be one of the reasons she married me, how I feel about things like this.

But that is how I work. One thing is related, or even dependant upon another. It's pretty mercenary, but...
I'm at least honest.

PS - wow, that reminds me of a long time ago, when I would get into serious debates about things on another website... this is the longest post I've written in years...

 

[BonosSaint]

Thank you. I was curious about your personal correlation and you explained it well.

 

[Saracene]

I definitely agree that beauty is more than just physical appearance... but I don't really see how you can press that point with a campaign that doesn't show you anything about the women except their physical appearances - and rather attractive appearances, too, if not exactly super-modelish.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

The big reason I don't read fashion-related magazines is because I'm just not one who tends to fuss over my own appearance much, so I don't have much use for them to begin with.

But I merely take this debateable issue like this: if the images presented bother you, don't read the magazine. Put it back on the shelf, toss it, stuff like that, and walk away. Or, go ahead and suggest seeing people of all kinds of shapes and sizes in there-variety is indeed always a good thing, no denying that, but at the same time, don't make it seem like a crime if skinny people are in there, too (it just seems sometimes with some people who complain that that's the case. Even if that's not how they intend on coming across, that's how it sounds to me sometimes).

Angela

 

[For Honor]

Sure, no problem.

I.... have a....
bit of an addiction to explaining things,
It's good to... release it once in a while
========================================


Out of all the people I see on a regular basis, a lot of them aren't health conscious at all. Maybe 1/3 are semi-aware of things.

ANd I'm no specialist, really. But I at least make an effort.


But America will always be the media's hunting ground as long as we support commercials for super good fitting jeans AND Big Macs. You can't have both, really.

Which one is easier?

a few bucks for a burger
Or a few hours in the gym?

It's not that hard to see why America is so fat.

=================================


BUt also, there is a bigger size woman that I really like.
She isn't "hot" by "us teenager's" standards. BUt she is a great, phenominal person who is gaurenteed success later in life - she's got tremendous work ethic, and gets it from her father, who is really well off.

She could have slacked off her whole life
She could have not even done well in school and not tried
But she did, and she is the kind of person who will always give that effort in life

I like that a lot, and always want to maintain our relationship. She's a rare person, or at least, rare in the people I know.

 

[For Honor]

I definitely agree that beauty is more than just physical appearance... but I don't really see how you can press that point with a campaign that doesn't show you anything about the women except their physical appearances - and rather attractive appearances, too, if not exactly super-modelish.

Great point... and while they are pushing a good issue.......


There's nothing quite like taking on the role as a do-gooder to increase those sales, baby Dove - they are concerned about women..... and their money, too




But on the whole, I do think that it is an issue worthy of discussion

 

[beli]

The ad has different models in the USA. On the English ads theres a whitey white pale girl with - the ultimate sin - freckles. Why no freckles in the USA?

PS I'm still really pleased this campaign is happening. Just a little miffed that my personal "group" has been deleted from the USA campaign.

 

[beli]

They've also deleted the
- older woman with wrinkles
- woman with grey hair

Im trying to save the pics at the moment.....

 

[beli]

The UK models.

 

[dandy]

i saw those pics here in canada somewhere, beli. i remember seeing the woman with the freckles and i thought of you.

 

[BAW]

Those pics are still used in the US beli...several magazines have a tri-fold ad with the complete series of pics, which includes the freckled woman, the older woman, etc. They are only excluded in the one page ads.

 

[u2bonogirl]

I was so happy when I saw the ad. Ive been using dove products for a while and Im proud of them!
Ive got a really poor self image, and part of what has fed into that (not the cause though) is the media.
The insecurities that are already there are just aggravated by seeing nothing but stick figures with no fat, muscle, freckles, or imperfections in the media.
When I look at that ad I dont feel like a cow

 

[adam's_mistress]

u2bonogirl, I've seen your wedding pictures and of course the picture in your avatar. The genuine quality in which your posts are written say a lot about how you must be "in real life". You are a beautiful young woman inside and out, absolutely radiant, and your new husband is lucky to have you as his wife and I'm sure he knows that.

I understand at your age it can be difficult to shed whatever insecurities you have. I felt the same way you did for a long, long time. I don't think it is unusual for a lot of young women to feel the way you do. You are young still, there are still hints at teenaged awkwardness, and it takes a while to feel comfortable with who we are and how the world perceives us. No matter how much reinforcement we get from the people who love us. I know for me, it took a while for me to feel comfortable in my own skin - I probably didn't really start to feel comfortable with who I was until I was in my mid 20's, but that was just me. Coming to feel this way has been a gradual process, and I am happy with myself and wouldn't want to be any other way.

Personally I like the Dove ads, it's been a long time coming. it doesn't matter whether Dove are doing business, they know their market and they are wisely using it to their advantage. If ads like this boost a woman's self image, I don't see the problem. Not only do women need to see this kind of attainable normalcy in advertising, but men need to see it too.

Now if Victoria's Secret would get in on this marketing strategy, that would be revolutionary.

 

[u2bonogirl]

thank you adams_mistress for the really kind post.
Its comforting to hear from other people that they felt the same way as me for a time and then grew out of it with age.
I think it will be helpful for young women to see something other than whats being advertized right now.Of course it would be a bad move for certain companys to start using "normal" looking women for their ads, but gosh, its so nice to look at an ad and not feel guilty for eating lunch afterwards

 

[WildHoneyAlways]

I like this campaign too but I fear it won't make a bit of difference.
The amount of girls I knew in college that had some sort of eating disorder is staggering. And these are girls who ate right and worked out and were still judged to be fat/chubby/soft etc. Feeling hungry was a good thing.

I don't know how to fix/change this mentality. I know my own mother was always telling me to lose weight growing up. I was a competitive swimmer, worked out all the time and was never "skinny." I wasn't fat, mind you, but still. I know she meant well....but I have "issues" as a result.

 

[Liesje]

I like this campaign too but I fear it won't make a bit of difference.
The amount of girls I knew in college that had some sort of eating disorder is staggering. And these are girls who ate right and worked out and were still judged to be fat/chubby/soft etc. Feeling hungry was a good thing.

I don't know how to fix/change this mentality. I know my own mother was always telling me to lose weight growing up. I was a competitive swimmer, worked out all the time and was never "skinny." I wasn't fat, mind you, but still. I know she meant well....but I have "issues" as a result.

Your post sort of gets at two key issues for me:

1) an eating disorder is a disease that focuses on control. Not eating, and being skinny, is incidental...just symptoms of a deeper problem. I have my sincere doubts that media portrayals of thin celebs and models are responsible for full-blown eating disorders, even though these media portrayals can be disturbing. However, disordered eating, I guess mimicking an eating disorder, is an entirely different matter and has much more to do with girls feeling fat and not good enough.

2) In my experience, parenting has been the most influential factor on how I view myself. My mom never really said anything one way or the other about how much I weighed or how I looked. I was raised to value things like honesty, integrity, accountability, and independence. I really don't care that I've gained 15 pounds since starting college, but if I ever lost my job(s) and had to move back home or ask my parents for financial help, I would feel like a total loser. It's just that I was raised so that my identity comes from my work and my schooling because my parents never cared how we looked or offered to buy us clothes, make-up, gym memberships, etc. I'm not saying one way is better than the other. I have my own issues, like, I feel like a total failure if I'm struggling to make rent or have to borrow money from my mom (in fact, I usually try my younger brother or sister first), but it's just how I was raised...to be independent and focus on being practical, not really getting into looks or even having time to think about it.

I know a LOT of girls whose moms would say things like "let's go on a diet together" or "we should start going to the gym together" or just plain say "I think you should lose wight". Maybe in some instances, the moms were just trying to practice what they preach and get their girls to be healthy, but a 14-18 year old girl reads a LOT into a statement like those. In some cases, I know the moms were just shallow and really did think their daughters weren't good enough and that sickens me.

 

[Saracene]

I think this mentality will go on as long as women continue to put the pressure and pass the cruellest pettiest judgements on each other. We are really our own worst enemies, at times.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

We are really our own worst enemies, at times.

I agree, but I think many women pass cruel and petty judgments on themselves more so than on other women. I'm not discounting that women can be harsh on other women, that's certainly true.

How can you believe and appreciate compliments and positive reinforcement if you don't truly think and believe those things about yourself? Much of it also has to do w/ growing up and how your family values you, like LivLuv was saying. I think especially how males treat their daughters and sisters. It's easy to say "get over" all of that, it's easier said than done.

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

1) an eating disorder is a disease that focuses on control. Not eating, and being skinny, is incidental...just symptoms of a deeper problem. I have my sincere doubts that media portrayals of thin celebs and models are responsible for full-blown eating disorders, even though these media portrayals can be disturbing. However, disordered eating, I guess mimicking an eating disorder, is an entirely different matter and has much more to do with girls feeling fat and not good enough.

I agree. If eating disorders were simply caused by women wanting to be as thin as their favourite actress or supermodel then we wouldn't see people with eating disorders weighing far, far less than even the thinnest model. I don't doubt that the prevalence of very thin models and actresses contributes to a lot of women having an unhealthy attitude towards their weight and physical apperance (and, probably, to women resorting to unhealthy diets), but I honestly don't believe that it causes someone to have an eating disorder in the absence of other factors which cause eating disorders.

 

[u2bonogirl]

I agree with eating disorders being about control. When I had one I freely admitted that the number one reason I was doing it to myself was because I liked having control of something in my life. Incidentally I also have a poor self image so it all bled together, but I really liked the feeling of causing something to change by sheer will.
That and it was a cry for help. I thought that if somebody saw me wasting away they would realize that there was something terribly wrong.
So, I agree, its not just seeing models that make girls go nutty. Its not being strong enough emotionally to feel good about themselves or otherwise
But for a girl that already feels like she is dirt, seeing somebody pretty and shiny is just a boot in the ass

 

[U2@NYC]

We're an image conscious species, I think you'll find the most "beautiful" people often find themselves thinking they too need to change certain aspects of their appearance.

I think when it comes to our physical image it needs to be about health more than anything.

I think we have two extremes going on here in America. We have those that are starving themselves in order to be the skinniest they can be. But we also have many who are trying to make unhealthy obesity considered "normal".

Great point. None of the two extremes are good. Sometimes we focused too much on criticizing skinny girls as trying to 'show off' while we let obese ones go by. Obesity is not healthy and I am hoping that this campaign does not get twisted into justifying this.

 

[fah]

i saw those pics here in canada somewhere, beli. i remember seeing the woman with the freckles and i thought of you.

I saw those pics in one of the Canadian mags too

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

I agree. If eating disorders were simply caused by women wanting to be as thin as their favourite actress or supermodel then we wouldn't see people with eating disorders weighing far, far less than even the thinnest model. I don't doubt that the prevalence of very thin models and actresses contributes to a lot of women having an unhealthy attitude towards their weight and physical apperance (and, probably, to women resorting to unhealthy diets), but I honestly don't believe that it causes someone to have an eating disorder in the absence of other factors which cause eating disorders.

Exactly. Hell, women can get self-conscious about their appearance just from seeing a nice-looking girl at the beach. There's lots of triggers out there, it's just up to each women to realize that they have many good things to offer and to not go with what everyone else thinks is the look of the year. Just because they think that doesn't mean you have to agree.

Angela

 

[WildHoneyAlways]

While I agree that control issues play a role in eating disorders you can not discount the the drive for perfection as a cause as well. Peer or self pressure to be perfect can influence girls in uhhealthy ways.

I just don't buy that :

1) an eating disorder is a disease that focuses on control. Not eating, and being skinny, is incidental...just symptoms of a deeper problem. I have my sincere doubts that media portrayals of thin celebs and models are responsible for full-blown eating disorders, even though these media portrayals can be disturbing.

This is not what the research I have read states. There are many factors that can contribute to an eating disorder and cultural pressure and genetic predispositon are among them. Being skinny can most certainly be a desired effect. (this may be a reason why eating disorders run high in sororities, dance, theater, etc)

 

[Liesje]

While I agree that control issues play a role in eating disorders you can not discount the the drive for perfection as a cause as well. Peer or self pressure to be perfect can influence girls in uhhealthy ways.

I just don't buy that :

This is not what the research I have read states. There are many factors that can contribute to an eating disorder and cultural pressure and genetic predispositon are among them. Being skinny can most certainly be a desired effect. (this may be a reason why eating disorders run high in sororities, dance, theater, etc)

I'm not trying to be rude or pick a fight or anything, but I have to say my research has suggested a different correlation altogether. There's so many random articles out there that just talk about eating disorders on one hand and then thin celebs and model on the other and the writers assume there is causation without ever looking deeper into the psychology and psychiatry of girls with clinically diagnosed EDs. I've been obsessed with gymnastics since I was very young so eating disorders are always something that hangs over my head. I actually wrote a huge research paper on this issue for a class last year and found a lot of studies that suggested that the types of personalities of girls who go far with sports like gymnastics and advanced dance are a much, much bigger factor in being prone to eating disorders than just wanting to be thin. What the general public often forgets is that correlation does not prove causation. Yes, gymnasts and dancers are small and thin (mostly dancers), but that is not the root cause of the eating disorder. For my paper I also did a HUGE polling of upper level gymnasts from all over the world and of the ones that had been hospitalized for an ED or treated in some other way for having an ED for years, they all told me their EDs were not about being thin but about having some control or having deeper issues like depression. Some would tell me about their coaches hinting for them to lose weight, but in the end they only did it to get a reaction from everyone and receive praise from the coach. They didn't care that they were thin, but that the coach's attitude towards them changed because of something THEY did, some aspect of their life that THEY were able to control and manipulate to their advantage.

So basically, I'm convinced eating disorders are not really about looks at all. Say I said to a friend she would look better if she lost a few pounds, but she went out of control and developed full blown anorexia. I would understand her response NOT as wanting to be thinner b/c that's what I and other want, but that she is able to change her behavior in a way that elicits a positive response from me and others. Looking at it this way, you can see that thinness and looks become incidental.

I've also never met someone with a full blown ED that would blame it on the media or how our culture prefers women. I HAVE met a LOT of women who practice unhealthy, disordered eating habits that would say so, but that's more of a self-confidence issue and not the disease that is a clinically diagnosed ED.

 

[Lemonfix]

I agree that one of the biggest misconceptions about ED's is that they are caused by simply wanting to be thin and not because of control issues.

My question is about women who are bone thin and look in the mirror and see a fat person. Women you see on TV who look like walking skeletons and yet still think they are fat. This must be some kind of mental disorder as well...would that qualify as anorexia or is it a different kind of mental problem or a bit of both?