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Old 04-08-2004, 02:57 PM   #31
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I don't think any one person or policy or department can take the "blame" for 9/11. Let's not lose sight of the fact that no matter how many precautions were or were not taken, nineteen terrorists chose to hijack and crash planes. They may have had their reasons, and, yes, we might do well to try to figure out what makes young, healthy, intelligent men want to become suicide pilots. But with them and their backers lies the ultimate accountability, morally if not politically speaking.

The goal of the 9/11 hearings should be, and I hope that it will be, not to point fingers but to ask questions and get information. People should be able to answer freely and honestly, and no one should have to be afraid to testify. Let them say, "This is something that went wrong. This is something that needs to be corrected." If it were conducted less like a trial and more like a fact-finding mission, without people waiting with tar and feathers on BOTH sides of the political fence, maybe we could actually learn something and make some changes.
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Old 04-08-2004, 03:07 PM   #32
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Originally posted by Lilac


Sure, it's always 'bullshit' to someone on the 'other side.' Best way to try to strike down an opponent by discrediting their position. I'm surprised you didn't post laughy faces or rolleyes too. And maybe it's time SHE played the 'race card.' It works, thanks to all the PC people. She might as well use it to her advantage. Not only is she black, she's a woman so she can play the sex card too. That's why I think if she were a liberal no one would mess with her.
I don't have to discredit your position because it had no merit to begin with. If you could prove that no liberal has ever been "messed" with or that only conservative women get "messed" with than you may have a point. And no one should ever play the race or sex card, I know people do it all the time but to say she might as well you're giving her absolutely no credit.


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Originally posted by Lilac

Sorry Pax., but I appreciate you reading and being with me on my other comments I really don't think this would be happening if she were a liberal, or if a liberal administration was in office. It seems to me to be an attempt by the opponents of the current admin. to bring a few people down or give them bad publicity in an election year. Sorry that's how it looks. Playing politics.
They went after Clinton for having an affair, which should never had been made anyone's business, you don't think they'd go after him when thousands of lives or at stake. COME ON!




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Originally posted by Lilac

But given the fact that NO ONE had ever been known to crash airplanes into buildings before, why would they consider that?
I hate to give them any postive comments, but the terrorists carried out a brilliant and ingenius plan that stumped everybody, and that is to their credit and not to the discredit of Rice. You can't image every possible thing they might do if no one's done it before and you don't think that way and you have no credible spies to reveal such secrets. It was a situation like we had never had before. But we 'won't get fooled again.'
Hello, this is there job. They are suppose to plan for anything. This administration had been tipped off about this behaviour and they chose to ignore it.


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Originally posted by Lilac

Yes, and I still don't think it was enough to make her guilty of not acting on something she had no idea about. Why not blame the FBI, national security is their job, all those agents. But NO ONE guessed. They would have needed a time machine, or have been mind readers. That is why I think she, or anyone else in her position, should be guilty of not stopping it. How?

Here's the only thing I may agree with you on and that's that she shouldn't be the only one to take the fall.
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Old 04-08-2004, 03:16 PM   #33
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

Hello, this is there job. They are suppose to plan for anything. This administration had been tipped off about this behaviour and they chose to ignore it.
Again, unless she was a mind reader or had a time machine, or was a miracle worker, there is no way anyone could have anticipated or stopped the 'brilliant' and until then unexpected and unheard of tactics the terrorists successfully carried out.

I still say they did not "choose to ignore" the info, they were powerless to act. The only thing they could have done was to drag all the Arabs out of flight school and get called racial profilers and violaters or human rights. Nothing had happened yet, so the guys were not guilty of anything, and I KNOW in this PC world, there would have been an uproar about doing that. The gov't knew it too. That's why they didn't do it. If anything is to blame for that, it is not the gov't, or one person, it is PCness in general. Because of it, there are certain things that cannot be said or done in this country, even if they need to be.

It was a tragic occurance, one that no one could have predicted. We can learn a lesson from it, but throwing blame around and firing people does no good now, as no one was negligent or meant any harm. I have also heard Clinton blamed for not acting on the terrorist threat either, and though I never liked him, I also don't think he is to blame for the same reasons I don't think Rice is to blame. Everything I said for her goes for everyone, you can't blame any of those people in either admininistartion. It was a fluke, a shock, a case of 'shit happens' but 'don't get fooled again.' That's all we can do, learn and move on.

Go back and read my other remarks, apparently you were so busy picking at the 'woman' and 'liberal vs. conservative' stuff you 'chose to ignore' them

In the list I made in the other post, I explained how there was really no way they could 'act.'
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Old 04-08-2004, 03:26 PM   #34
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I would like to openly ask all you who criticize and say 'something' should have been done, it was their responsibility, I want to know WHAT you expected them to do, and how? NO ONE KNEW! Again I refer to my original post. Here it is again, minus the 'liberal' and 'woman' stuf that pissed some of you off. I would like you to read and consider these things and give me an honest answer as to what could have been done in reality. I say nothing under the circumstances.

I would like to know what you all think she did wrong. Terrrorism is a constant threat, and you can't ever really tell when and where it will strike. What was she supposed to do?

1- find every young Arab male in flight schools, round them up and lock them up or deport them.

----and get accused of racial profiling and violation of human rights

There is enough complaining about that now, after the fact, especially at airports. How could this ever have been done, really?

2-go attack all the countries that harbor terrorist and root them out!

---sure, the military action taken in Afghanistan and Iraq are unpopular enough AFTER the fact of 9-11, can you image sending troops BEFORE it happened??

3- station fighter jets around all US tall buildings at all times, just in case!

--get real, now, no one is a mind reader. Rice, Bush and the entire gov't had no idea how attacks were going to happen so they were powerless to stop it.

People are so upset now because of it, but consider that BEFORE it happened, no one knew it was going to happen, so they would not have supported anything that might have been done to prevent it (like #'s 1 and 2) because it HADN'T happened yet, and everyone would have condemned the gov't for it.

Another major thing is, intelligence gathering in the fight against terrorism is very difficult, because the people involved do not tell on each other and would not accept spies infiltrating into their midst, which has worked in other situations. Because they are willing to DIE to kill Americans, some even want to and believe they will be glorified for it, there is NOTHING you can do to scare them. Even if you tortured them in interrogation they would never betray their brethren. They would die first, or give false info to throw us off.


I don't think there are any answers for this other than the old 'it was their job it was their responsibility they should do something' thing that really offers no solutions.
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Old 04-08-2004, 03:28 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lilac


Again, unless she was a mind reader or had a time machine, or was a miracle worker, there is no way anyone could have anticipated or stopped the 'brilliant' and until then unexpected and unheard of tactics the terrorists successfully carried out.

I still say they did not "choose to ignore" the info, they were powerless to act. The only thing they could have done was to drag all the Arabs out of flight school and get called racial profilers and violaters or human rights. Nothing had happened yet, so the guys were not guilty of anything, and I KNOW in this PC world, there would have been an uproar about doing that. The gov't knew it too. That's why they didn't do it. If anything is to blame for that, it is not the gov't, or one person, it is PCness in general. Because of it, there are certain things that cannot be said or done in this country, even if they need to be.

Go back and read my other remarks, apparently you were so busy picking at the 'woman' and 'liberal vs. conservative' stuff you 'chose to ignore' them
I read all you comments.

Someone tipped off the administration to this behavior. So obviously someone was thinking outside of the box enough to realize it may be a threat, but too bad it wasn't our administration. It doesn't take that much to imagine this circumstance. You keep bringing up racial profiling, but when you have the names of these students who aren't learning to land you bring them in. It has nothing to do with race.

Whereas I'm sick of what the PC movement has turned into you can't blame it on what happened. This country's security is far more important than worrying about how you come off to the PC.
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Old 04-08-2004, 03:29 PM   #36
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Hello, this is there job. They are suppose to plan for anything. This administration had been tipped off about this behaviour and they chose to ignore it.
Well, let's hope that the 9-11 Commission can make productive recommendations for changes in the way the FBI, CIA and other security offices operate.


At the same time, if you want a government that can "plan for anything" - bear in mind the intrusion on civil liberties this may create. To the exten we keep the government out of your life, we keep the government out of the lives of potential terrorists as well.
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Old 04-08-2004, 03:38 PM   #37
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


I read all you comments.

Someone tipped off the administration to this behavior. So obviously someone was thinking outside of the box enough to realize it may be a threat, but too bad it wasn't our administration. It doesn't take that much to imagine this circumstance. You keep bringing up racial profiling, but when you have the names of these students who aren't learning to land you bring them in. It has nothing to do with race.
It SHOULDN'T have anything to do with race, but when ALL the suspects are from a particular ethnic group, it does. I still say, the fact that they were learning to take off and not land was not enough to indicate what they had planned since no one had ever flown planes into buildings before there was no real reason to suspect it. I also heard these guys often were poor and lived in hotels close to homelessness, yet paid for their tuition in cash filled suitcases. (from terrorists backers of course) That should have been a red flag too, and I'm sure it was to the ones who taught them and went to school with them. But what are you going to do, go take them all away? Again, yes, the PC stuff.

Quote:
This country's security is far more important than worrying about how you come off to the PC.
That's the way it SHOULD be, but it isn't. Even after 9-11, suspicious individuals at airports were rounded up and taken in for questioning and detained for days and STILL yelled about their 'rights' and 'racial profiling' so how do you think it would have flown BEFORE 9-11 when there was no concrete evidence other than lingering suspicions which could be written off as 'stereotypes' See?

I will go out on a limb and risk being flamed and say I blame PCness for 9-11 more than any individual, group, or political regime.
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Old 04-08-2004, 03:43 PM   #38
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Well, let's hope that the 9-11 Commission can make productive recommendations for changes in the way the FBI, CIA and other security offices operate.
I agree.

Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader

At the same time, if you want a government that can "plan for anything" - bear in mind the intrusion on civil liberties this may create. To the exten we keep the government out of your life, we keep the government out of the lives of potential terrorists as well.
I understand this fear. This kind of thinking is exactly what spawned the Patriot Act. Some believe this is the only way to fight terrorism. But what I meant is that we've been so preoccupied with war on a traditional ground and that's not the way to fight terrorism. Terrorist aren't going to fight fair, or by traditional means. We have to start thinking about how terrorist are going to use cars, planes, water sources, cell phones, power plants, etc. as weapons.
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Old 04-08-2004, 03:50 PM   #39
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Originally posted by Lilac


It SHOULDN'T have anything to do with race, but when ALL the suspects are from a particular ethnic group, it does. I still say, the fact that they were learning to take off and not land was not enough to indicate what they had planned since no one had ever flown planes into buildings before there was no real reason to suspect it. I also heard these guys often were poor and lived in hotels close to homelessness, yet paid for their tuition in cash filled suitcases. (from terrorists backers of course) That should have been a red flag too, and I'm sure it was to the ones who taught them and went to school with them. But what are you going to do, go take them all away? Again, yes, the PC stuff.



That's the way it SHOULD be, but it isn't. Even after 9-11, suspicious individuals at airports were rounded up and taken in for questioning and detained for days and STILL yelled about their 'rights' and 'racial profiling' so how do you think it would have flown BEFORE 9-11 when there was no concrete evidence other than lingering suspicions which could be written off as 'stereotypes' See?

I will go out on a limb and risk being flamed and say I blame PCness for 9-11 more than any individual, group, or political regime.
The police, FBI, and CIA start investigations on this type of behavior all the time. It's true you can't bring them in for this activity, but you start to follow money trails, how and when they got into the country, etc. No matter what race these people are you investigate the behaviour...it's not that hard to see.
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Old 04-08-2004, 03:55 PM   #40
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It's not hard to see, but it is hard to ACT. I still say PCness HURT.

There was no way to prevent the attacks, but we have learned from them and can prevent future ones. I also think because of what happened, the PC thing will not be such a factor in the future now that there is evidence of a real danger. It turns out to be a case of, it's too late to save those who died, but we can stop them from hurting anyone else.' (as you always hear on TV when a murderer is put away) That is a help, and a hope, if not enough solace.
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Old 04-08-2004, 05:29 PM   #41
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I understand this fear. This kind of thinking is exactly what spawned the Patriot Act. Some believe this is the only way to fight terrorism. But what I meant is that we've been so preoccupied with war on a traditional ground and that's not the way to fight terrorism. Terrorist aren't going to fight fair, or by traditional means. We have to start thinking about how terrorist are going to use cars, planes, water sources, cell phones, power plants, etc. as weapons.
I agree traditional definitions for war do not work. Until a terrorist acts, the are a citizen. Peering into their lives to find out who they are and what they are doing leaves us all exposed.
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Old 04-08-2004, 05:37 PM   #42
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I agree traditional definitions for war do not work. Until a terrorist acts, the are a citizen. Peering into their lives to find out who they are and what they are doing leaves us all exposed.
And if you are participating in behaviour that raises flags like this I want you investigated as well. I agree there is thin line. I don't believe people should be tracked down for checking out certain books or being from a certain country, but this activity warrants investigation.
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Old 04-08-2004, 07:18 PM   #43
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I'm really tired of people trotting out the phrase "PC" when they want to discriminate against others. It's such a fucking smokescreen for behavior that's unfair and wrong.


Get a new excuse.
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Old 04-08-2004, 07:31 PM   #44
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People demanding correct language usage for minority groups can be just as discriminating as those who claim PC as a defense.
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Old 04-08-2004, 08:53 PM   #45
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I'm talking about blaming PC for not being able to spew their bigotted bullshit.


But feel free to give me an example of what you're talking about.
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