Don't Ask Don't Tell

[Irvine511]

There are times "in the field" where it is so cold that you have to huddle with your battle buddy in order to stay warm. Forcing a heterosexual to huddle closely to a homosexual is a form of sexual harassment.

okay, "fuck you" was my original response.

but i'll just let this one lie. it's impossible to take you seriously, and i'm sorry about that. i wish we could have a serious discussion about this topic with someone who is currently serving, but statements like this make it impossible.

 

[MrPryck2U]

Somebody should start a new thread about women in the military because this thread has gone off the topic of don't ask, don't tell.

 

[MrPryck2U]

Irvine, haven't you learned you can't say that?

You're smarter than that.

 

[BVS]

Frankly it doesn't deserve another thread.

 

[Irvine511]

Irvine, haven't you learned you can't say that?

You're smarter than that.

i edited.

 

[BVS]

Irvine, I liked your original post better.

 

[A_Wanderer]

I specifically stated that because women are generally weaker than men it could present problems; problems such as the ones AEON has alluded to for infantry roles (not being able to perform at the same physical level and compromising the overall effectiveness of the group).

In pointing out the false equivalence that AEON had drawn between a non-issue (gays) and an actual issue with arguments for and against (women in the military) you pressed the point.

I then stated that I acknowledge that there are some women who could meet those standards (and it would be a smaller minority than the proportion of men that could) and in those cases it could be alright - but that still leaves questions of vulnerability to sexual harrasment and abuse, maintaining the esprit de corps etc.

My position is one of consistent standards and that there are at least some valid reasons against it.

 

[MrPryck2U]

Trust me, I can understand your anger. I would've told the guy the same thing a few pages ago, but he's just not worth it. You've got to take the high road.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

He got upset and he had every right to get upset.

I think we should leave this as is, for one it points out perhaps that those who think in certain ways about gay people also think in certain ways about women. Arguments aside about physical strength, it's the same sorts of mindsets that allow for certain beliefs.

 

[Irvine511]

i wonder why straight white men won't allow sexuality to be an issue in the way that they've (generally) allowed race to become not-an-issue.

seriously, what's the hang up?

is it still the whole dick-in-the-butt thing?

 

[MrPryck2U]

With all do respect, it's not all straight WHITE men. Homophobia comes in all races.

 

[BVS]

I then stated that I acknowledge that there are some women who could meet those standards and in those cases it could be alright -

That's really where the debate should end.

but that still leaves questions of vulnerability to sexual harrasment and abuse, maintaining the esprit de corps etc.

Well where else should we apply the "vulnerability to sexual harrasment" issue? Since it's possible that sexual harrasment may happen maybe we shouldn't allow men and women to work with each other period. Walk on the streets together. Talk to each other...

 

[A_Wanderer]

Im not going to justify arguments that I am at pains to rationalise (as in I reject them too but they have been made by somebody).

 

[BVS]

Fair enough...

 

[Shaliz]

There are times "in the field" where it is so cold that you have to huddle with your battle buddy in order to stay warm. Forcing a heterosexual to huddle closely to a homosexual is a form of sexual harassment.

Okay, I just have one question...which one of you would actually be thinking about having sex in this survival situation? Is the heterosexual guy worried he might have a sudden urge? I mean, come on!

I seriously think a big part of the problem is that too many people still think being gay is all about sex.

 

[Irvine511]

Okay, I just have one question...which one of you would actually be thinking about having sex in this survival situation? Is the heterosexual guy worried he might have a sudden urge? I mean, come on!

I seriously think a big part of the problem is that too many people still think being gay is all about sex.

i think what it's about is if a gay and a straight were cuddling together, and suddenly the straight man got an erection, it's the gay guy's fault.

 

[anitram]

Forget it, I'm not even going to bother.

It's a sad social statement that we have a bigot and a sexist as an LEADER in the Infantry. No wonder the military is still stuck in the middle ages.

And A_Wanderer can argue all he wants about physical feats of strength: apparently he missed all of AEON's posts alluding to women being a distraction and women coming on to him in tents as if he's that attractive to us. His physical strength argument and his team bonding argument are NOTHING more than a colourable attempt to promote sexist and homophobic policies by trying to make it seem like his policy is really about something entirely different. It isn't.

 

[A_Wanderer]

define "his".

 

[anitram]

Oh, please, I'm not going to quibble here with you, we're not at an academic conference.

You know exactly what I'm saying in my post, and if you don't, then forget it.

This thread is completely absurd.

 

[A_Wanderer]

It's not quibbling; either AEON is a sexist and homophobic bigot, I am a sexist and homophobic bigot or both of us are.

 

[anitram]

He is.

You are just giving logical justification to his sexism - but your POV is not where he is coming from. He is driven by sexism and bigotry and then trying to pass these things off as acceptable under the guise of physical strength and team bonding. It's fucking pathetic.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Well im fine with that

 

[martha]

Didn't this very same discussion go on when the military was going to integrate? What about those poor white soldiers who were "uncomfortable" fighting, or "team-building" with a black soldier next to them?


AEON, whatever credibility you may have had, and it wasn't all that much, your insane homophobia has eliminated it. I'm sure someday you'll join us in the 21st century, but it'll be a long hard trip for you.

 

[AEON]

He is.

You are just giving logical justification to his sexism - but your POV is not where he is coming from. He is driven by sexism and bigotry and then trying to pass these things off as acceptable under the guise of physical strength and team bonding. It's fucking pathetic.

You know - the name calling is getting a bit out of hand. Can't someone express views contradictory to the majority here without being called names and hearing "F*** You?" I thought you were a law student, anitram. Do they allow this talk in the court room?

I know that my opinions can be troubling to some. I also find many opinions in FYM troubling. That being said - it honestly isn't fun for me to post on non-controversial issues. And believe it or not, I do try to understand all POVs even if I don't agree with them. I have learned quite a bit.

What I haven't seen in this thread is an answer to this question:

How is it that forcing a heterosexual male to cuddle and shower with a homosexual male is not considered sexual harassment, when it would be considered sexual harassment if we forced a woman to do these things with a heterosexual man? That is the basis of my female/homosexual male comparison.

I have given logical, coherent reasons to justify my opinions. Instead of a series of insults and F bombs, I’d like to see if anyone that disagrees with me can offer some well thought out points that contradict mine.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Huddling is much more utilitarian than cuddling.

 

[AEON]

AEON, whatever credibility you may have had, and it wasn't all that much, your insane homophobia has eliminated it.

I find it sad that you must refer to my opinions as insane homophobia simply because I do not feel it is necessary to force heterosexual men to huddle and shower with homosexual males.

 

[anitram]

You know - the name calling is getting a bit out of hand. Can't someone express views contradictory to the majority here without being called names and hearing "F*** You?" I thought you were a law student, anitram. Do they allow this talk in the court room?

Please, get over yourself. Are we in the court room?

I wasn't calling you names. I honestly and reasonably believe you are a sexist and a bigot based on the things you've said here over and over again. Those are, IMO, accurate representations of your views.

 

[Liesje]

What I haven't seen in this thread is an answer to this question:

How is it that forcing a heterosexual male to cuddle and shower with a homosexual male is not considered sexual harassment, when it would be considered sexual harassment if we forced a woman to do these things with a heterosexual man? That is the basis of my female/homosexual male comparison.

Who said that the male/female huddle is automatically sexual harassment? It's a survival technique, definitely not unique to the military. I've done it before on a few occasions (really cold, trying to hide, etc), sometimes with people I'd only met for the first time just hours before, and I've never felt any "sexual tension" or cried harassment. The notion that men and women are so Freudian we can't be near each other without there automatically being tension is pretty laughable.

If women pass the required tests (and I DO agree that they should be the same for all genders, races, and sexual orientations), than I'd assume it's just part of the job, having to sometimes huddle in tents or foxholes. If women or men are uncomfortable with this, they should not enlist or find a military job that doesn't involve huddling.

I guess for me it's so simple, I can't see why it's even worth bringing up.

 

[Irvine511]

What I haven't seen in this thread is an answer to this question:

How is it that forcing a heterosexual male to cuddle and shower with a homosexual male is not considered sexual harassment, when it would be considered sexual harassment if we forced a woman to do these things with a heterosexual man? That is the basis of my female/homosexual male comparison.

I have given logical, coherent reasons to justify my opinions. Instead of a series of insults and F bombs, I’d like to see if anyone that disagrees with me can offer some well thought out points that contradict mine.

if you had any idea how insulting your comments were, you'd understand where the "fuck you" -- which i did retract -- came from. but you don't understand, and i'm doing my best to present a point of view that you don't seem to have time for.

and, i'm sorry, you have not given a single logical, coherent reason to justify your opinions beyond what is homophobia, pure and simple. if you have an issue cuddling and showering with a gay person, then you need to get over it just like white soldiers were once uncomfortable showering and cuddling (is that really waht you do?) with black soldiers or hispanic soldiers or asian soldiers. the basis of your fear is irrational and we know it's irrational because gay men and women have served in the army, including the infantry, and it hasn't been a problem.

again, most of your questions -- is this sexual harassment !?!? -- were well answered in the Tim Hardaway thread. it isn't sexual harassment because gay men and straight men are both ... men. you have the same anatomy. there is no sexual component when gays and straights shower together in the way that there would be if men and women were to shower together because gay and straight men have been showering together for their entirely lives. gay men are perfectly comfortable hanging around with naked men in a way that straight men are not comfortable hanging around with naked women.

your analogy, that a man (any man) is to a gay man as a woman is to a straight man ignores so many basic cultural practices and socialized behavior that it is a false analogy. it's convenient, to be sure, but it's still false, and seems little more than a veiled justification for homophobia while at the same time asserting your own heterosexuality as if it's an unassaiable good.

 

[redhotswami]

I have given logical, coherent reasons to justify my opinions.

You certainly have not!!!
I keep asking you OVER and OVER and OVER again this same question. You have not been answering this question. You keep ignoring it and instead choose to derail the original nature of this thread by flooding it with your personal opinion disguised as the military's values. I am going to post it one more time. I'm asking you, AEON, please answer me this one question:

Again, I ask you. Since they are already in the military, what is so wrong about letting them say that they are gay? They are already there serving, just as anybody else. Even though I don't agree with you saying there will be sexual tension, what I'm pointing out is that the potential "sexual tension" which you think will be added is already there because THERE ARE CURRENTLY GAYS IN THE MILITARY.