Don't Ask Don't Tell

[AEON]

i think it's brave of AEON to admit he finds women irresistable, and thus his wife is untrusting of him in close proximity to humans with vaginas.

My wife would trust me, not the woman

 

[anitram]

Yes, AEON.

All of us gals are just waiting for the perfect moment to pounce on you. You're like McDreamy squared.

 

[Angela Harlem]

what don't you get, aeon? seriously, what don't you get? the fact you present yourself as a sexist pig? that you think women don't belong in equal positions? that women are the ones who should suffer with lack of opportunity because of some idiotic preconceived notion of sexual tension when a man and a woman are in close proximity? your fear that gay men are going to find you attractive, despite you being married and automatically unavailable, as well as, well, lets be honest, your personality probably turns most open minded gay men off anyway??? if they were going to chase a straight man, it would be one with a wonderful open mind, not you. what else don't you get? the fact that women abhor your kind of thinking? that intelligent men who push for equality and rights think your ideas are abhorrent? that they cringe at these views being shared by the military? that GOVERNMENT SANCTIONED DISCRIMINATION IS WHAT MAKES THE U.S SO UTTERLY UNFREE?

what bit are you not getting?

 

[BVS]

They share tents and shower together?

No but you may have to see a woman naked and keep it in your pants.

And obviously men can't do that.

 

[BVS]

My wife would trust me, not the woman

Wait I thought it was the men who couldn't control themselves.

Maybe you should post a pic to show all the women what they are missing, obviously you are irresistable!!!

In fact I just may turn gay.

 

[anitram]

Wait I thought it was the men who couldn't control themselves.

It was pretty predictable that this would all lead back to women are temptress whores.

 

[AEON]

In fact I just may turn gay.

I thought sexual orientation wasn't a choice...

 

[BVS]

Not according to you, and you're irresistable and all knowing.

 

[Irvine511]

According to AEON's logic, straight men are really fucked up. I mean, they can't live in close quarters with gay men, they can't live in close quarters with women and must contemplate sexual encounters and distractions 24 hours a day. They live in a constant state of sexual tension, directed at anyone who is not another straight male. I'm surprised straight men can even get through the day. Life must be total hell.

effing brilliant.

 

[Angela Harlem]

sexual orientation can be a choice. if someone put a gun to my head and said "make mad passionate love with aeon or a woman", i'd pick the woman.

 

[Irvine511]

I thought sexual orientation wasn't a choice...

you make me want to turn straight so you'll feel comfortbal showering with me.

 

[BVS]

sexual orientation can be a choice. if someone put a gun to my head and said "make mad passionate love with aeon or a woman", i'd pick the woman.

Best post of the thread, we can now close the thread...

 

[Irvine511]

By the way - I have met some Israeli Infantry officers - do not think for a moment that they are that different from their American counterparts. In fact, the British Infantry officers were the same as well.

what's confusing me is that you shot yourself in the foot with this post many pages ago -- both the UK and Israel allow gay soldiers to serve openly. and there are no problems. and you say tha they are made of the same stuff as the US.

really, what's the problem?

and, to push a bit further, i would argue that racial segregation and outright racism is as ingrained in many parts of the US as homophobia. yet these soldiers who've grown up with racism and segregation are told to hang their prejudices at the door when they enter the army. why is race an unacceptable prejudice, but homophobia is not?

 

[AEON]

what's confusing me is that you shot yourself in the foot with this post many pages ago -- both the UK and Israel allow gay soldiers to serve openly. and there are no problems. and you say tha they are made of the same stuff as the US.

really, what's the problem?

The fact is, they believe it IS a problem. It is one thing for a congressman to pass a bill in order to appear PC. It is quite another to actually serve in a combat arms unit. I suppose it is just something most will never understand.

I won't say there aren't some people in the Infantry that disagree with me. And if a law gets passed that allows openly gay soldiers serve in the Infantry - I'll obey and do my job even if I don't think it is best.

I wonder is my wife would mind if I joined the woman's volleyball team at the JC? And I wonder if the women would mind if I brought 6 of my tallest and most athletic friends. We could dominate like no other!

The point is - some people are simply not meant to serve in certain areas in life. Men shouldn't play women's volleyball, a man in a wheelchair can't compete in the NBA, and openly homosexual men do not fit into the modern Infantry. It really is that simple.

 

[redhotswami]

What's the difference in the quality of service between an openly gay soldier and a "don't ask don't tell" gay soldier? I mean, the soldier is still gay. Why do people think that letting them say who they are is going to have a negative impact on cohesion??

 

[Irvine511]

The fact is, they believe it IS a problem. It is one thing for a congressman to pass a bill in order to appear PC. It is quite another to actually serve in a combat arms unit. I suppose it is just something most will never understand.

they obviously aren't the majority opinion in either army, and they're obviously still with the army despite being so terrorized by the openly gay men they're forced to shower with.

 

[A_Wanderer]

It's interesting tha the most militarised nation state of ancient Greece did more than just allow homosexuality.

 

[anitram]

The point is - some people are simply not meant to serve in certain areas in life. Men shouldn't play women's volleyball, a man in a wheelchair can't compete in the NBA, and openly homosexual men do not fit into the modern Infantry. It really is that simple.

I don't think it's that simple, I think it's your bigoted opinion talking.

So what's the reason that women don't fit in a modern Infantry? The fact they are so oversexed that they will attack you in a tent? Or the fact you're so oversexed that you'd attack them? Or is it that you are harboring sexist opinions that belong in something other than a modern Infantry?

 

[Irvine511]

this was forwarded to me, i'll post:

[q]The best asset of the army is its spirit - of comradeship, brotherhood, and unity. It is a spirit which overrules, or at least ought to overrule, all the taxonomies of civilian life: race, politics, class, region, and even, one might hope, sexuality. But if you actually believe our men and women in uniform can stand up to the most maniacal, barbaric, ruthless, and vile killers in the world, and still be flustered by - gasp - a gay person, then you have officially exiled yourself from the frontier of reason.[/q]

 

[BVS]

The fact is, they believe it IS a problem. It is one thing for a congressman to pass a bill in order to appear PC. It is quite another to actually serve in a combat arms unit. I suppose it is just something most will never understand.

I won't say there aren't some people in the Infantry that disagree with me. And if a law gets passed that allows openly gay soldiers serve in the Infantry - I'll obey and do my job even if I don't think it is best.

There's a lot things you will never understand, that's life. But it's one thing to let your own hatred and the hatred of some others dictate life for everyone else.

And I wonder if the women would mind if I brought 6 of my tallest and most athletic friends. We could dominate like no other!

The point is - some people are simply not meant to serve in certain areas in life. Men shouldn't play women's volleyball, a man in a wheelchair can't compete in the NBA, and openly homosexual men do not fit into the modern Infantry. It really is that simple.

Don't hide behind "sexual frustration" when it's really pure sexism that makes you think women can't serve.

You've just now made yourself a liar.

 

[redhotswami]

this was forwarded to me, i'll post:

[q]The best asset of the army is its spirit - of comradeship, brotherhood, and unity. It is a spirit which overrules, or at least ought to overrule, all the taxonomies of civilian life: race, politics, class, region, and even, one might hope, sexuality. But if you actually believe our men and women in uniform can stand up to the most maniacal, barbaric, ruthless, and vile killers in the world, and still be flustered by - gasp - a gay person, then you have officially exiled yourself from the frontier of reason.[/q]

excellently put. i don't know if excellently is a word, but it just became one for the purposes of this post.

 

[Irvine511]

i guess i'd agree with the following -- if the majority of infantry men are like AEON and couldn't function in the presence of a gay, then most gay men aren't going to drift to the infantry. those that do are probably more masculine than the straight infantry guys. but does the absolute assurance that AEON will never have to shower with the gay so positively impace his performance that it justifies the thousands upon thousands of non-infantry jobs, like, you know, linguists?

 

[AEON]

It's interesting tha the most militarised nation state of ancient Greece did more than just allow homosexuality.

Yes - the old classic Greece defense.

I have 2 issues with this.

1) I would like to see more direct evidence regarding this and not scholarly speculation. What ancient Greece resources say this directly (not merely implied, like it is in the Illiad between Achillies and Patroklos) - and by whom was it written? An artist perhaps? Was he perhaps biased in his writing? Why do we accept without questions a few remarks from a few texts and then question the validity of the New Testament books?

2) different times, different Army. We also don't go around raping women when we go into a village either (yes, there are isolated incidents, but the ancient armies encouraged this)

 

[martha]

I think the sexual tension is an unnecessary element.

I am not saying that there are not women who can do the job. I'm certain there a few. However, it wouldn't be optimal. And in the Infantry, more than in any other element, you want as few distractions possible.

Oh good lord. We aren't going to be allowed an equal access and opportunity because you can't keep your mind out of MY pants? Sounds you'll fit right in over in Islamofascist-land. They like to keep women under wraps because the fellas get too distracted by our purtyness, too.

 

[martha]

openly homosexual men do not fit into the modern Infantry. It really is that simple.

It's a man's life in the Royal Army!

/random Monty Python quote

 

[anitram]

Oh good lord. We aren't going to be allowed an equal access and opportunity because you can't keep your mind out of MY pants?

I'm confused because then he seemed to suggest that it's us who can't keep our minds out of HIS pants.

 

[AEON]

I'm confused because then he seemed to suggest that it's us who can't keep our minds out of HIS pants.

Just for the record - when I said that I was mostly joking. Mostly.

 

[AEON]

There's a lot things you will never understand, that's life. But it's one thing to let your own hatred and the hatred of some others dictate life for everyone else.




Don't hide behind "sexual frustration" when it's really pure sexism that makes you think women can't serve.

You've just now made yourself a liar.

I wouldn't allow my toddler son to play tackle football with my brother's football team- it doesn't mean I hate him or that I am a toddler-phobe. It simply means it isn't the best situation for either my son or my brother's football team.

I wonder - are people here really concerned about what is best for the Army regarding this issue, or are they more concerned with their own sense of political correctness?

 

[AEON]

Don't ask, don't tell was a major reason, if not THE reason, I decided against enlisted at the age/place in my life where up until that point I'd always considered it a real possibility.

It sounds like the military probably wasn't the best fit for you. Just like Greenpeace is not the best fit for me.

 

[indra]

I think if I was a frightened straight guy and really worried about some gay guy looking at me or plotting to assault me I would want to know if any of the guys I was with were gay or not. Otherwise, knowing that statistically, at least some of the other guys there with me are indeed gay, I would wonder about all of them.

I just don't get how not knowing makes it better -- even for a homophobe.


Perhaps the real solution to this problem is to spay and neuter all military personnel.