Don't Ask Don't Tell

[Liesje]

That depends on the team - does it not? A team of marketing strategist would look different than a team of Infantry soldiers. Different jobs require different people - why is that so hard to accept?

Well, you were the one to bring up the "sexual tension". We're all waiting for an explanation on that....

 

[Angela Harlem]

How much sex is there in the US military? Is it a regular old bonk session, this 99.9% team building? I can't see the connection between workplace and who you sleep with each night. You all leave your loved ones behind.

You're a homophobe, AEON. Admit it.

 

[anitram]

I still want to know why women shouldn't be in Infantry. Are you all going to rape us?

 

[Angela Harlem]

We're the weaker sex, anitram, and women are prone to emotion. We're not physically strong enough to cope with the 0.1% of combat duties the military participate in. We distract the warrior within when standing next to any bloke. Have you not noticed how many men swoon when you simply ask them if they have the time?
Women are simply not allowed equal rights, ultimately, though.

 

[Judah]

Is it possible there are certain heterosexual male personality types that simply do not mix well with homosexuals? And that these types typically gravitate to organizations like the Infantry?

By the way - I have met some Israeli Infantry officers - do not think for a moment that they are that different from their American counterparts. In fact, the British Infantry officers were the same as well.

I can't speak for everyone in all Infantry units in all armies - but I certainly know that it is my observation that what I've posted is the prevalent attitude in the Infantry about gays in the military.

Perhaps it's the crowd you're hangin' out with.

A latest survey suggests the military may not be that closed minded:

http://lesbianlife.about.com/od/lesbianactivism/a/GayMilitaryPoll.htm

Gays in the Military: Military Service Members okay with Gay Soldiers
From Kathy Belge

Banning gays in the military because they were thought to be a threat to security is an argument that is holding less and less weight. One argument that is often cited is that US soldiers will not feel safe with gays in their ranks. This argument is no longer true. A poll of military personnel in December 2006 shows that a whopping 73% would accept openly gay and lesbian military members. This is a huge jump from 1993, when “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” was instituted. Then only 13% of soldiers favored the right of gays and lesbians to serve openly in the armed forces.
A survey by Zogby International of 545 troops who served in Iraq and Afghanistan also found that nearly one in four U.S. soldiers (23%) knows for sure that someone in their unit is gay or lesbian. Most of them learned of the person’s sexual orientation from the gay or lesbian soldier themselves.

----------

The actual survey report can be found here:

http://www.zogby.com/CSSMM_Report-Final.pdf

 

[Vincent Vega]

Being a solder is 99.9% training and team building. Very rarely is there an actual battle.

Should be enough time to understand that there is no need to worry about your comrades, shouldn't it?

The problem is, if you never get confronted with your personal receptions because you get shielded, this homophobia will remain in society.

And neither in a battle nor in training you are thinking about sex all the time, are you?

Soldiers would pretty fast learn that all this crap with the gay that has a crush on everybody is totally nonsense, and so they would learn to work with each other and probably don't think about the other's sexual orientation.

It's like people with different religions just live, work and have fun together, without thinking all the time that the other one has another belief.

For example in a few months the don't ask, don't tell will get abolished and one from your platoon finally feels confident in admitting that he is gay. Would you now, all of a sudden, reject him and feel uncomfortable, although you worked together with him perfectly well and never was there any case in which he got onto somebody?

 

[AEON]

I don't remember reading that the ENTJ temperament was closed minded. It is one of the rational types, but rational does not mean closed. minded. What source says they are closed minded?

I didn't say they WERE close minded, I said they SEEM that way to others.

From Type Talk at Work (Kroeger, 2002) "Another waste of time, in the ENTJ's mind, is having to beat around the bush in communicating to others. Their motto: Say what needs to be said, and let the chips fall where they may." This is why ENTJs can seem closeminded and arrogant.

http://typelogic.com/entj.html

from "Unequivocating" expresses the resoluteness of the ENTJ's dominant function. Clarity of convictions endows these Thinkers with a knack for debate, or wanting knack, a penchant for argument. The light and heat generated by Thinking at the helm can be impressive; perhaps even overwhelming. Experience teaches many ENTJs that restraint may often be the better part of valor, lest one find oneself victorious but alone.


I am taking Organizational Behavior, and part of our latest assignment was to find our MBTI type. It was very interesting. You can take the assessment at humanmetrics.com. It is fun reading about the different types. It has already helped me understand my wife a lot more

And no, I'm not a homophobe.

 

[anitram]

Why shouldn't women be in the Infantry?

 

[BVS]

Is it possible there are certain heterosexual male personality types that simply do not mix well with homosexuals?

Yes, they're called homophobes, and it's not a personality type.

And that these types typically gravitate to organizations like the Infantry?

So all homophobes gravitate to the military?

Worthless theory.


If you're too worried about getting an erection for the soldier next to you, then I don't want a gun in your hand, you behind the wheel of a tank, or in my country's uniform for that matter.

Does your wife forbid you from being in the same room with women, due to the sexual tention?

 

[BVS]

And no, I'm not a homophobe.

Well unless you're Tim Hardaway you probably wouldn't admit to it.

 

[Liesje]

I am taking Organizational Behavior, and part of our latest assignment was to find our MBTI type. It was very interesting. You can take the assessment at humanmetrics.com. It is fun reading about the different types. It has already helped me understand my wife a lot more

I took several courses in OB with some of the leading people in that field and I've never, ever heard anyone reference the ENTJ type to defend discrimination in order for more group cohesion. I can't think of anyone that wouldn't laugh at that.

Also, the major part of the MBTI tests are not learning what you ARE, but learning what areas you need to work on. Hence, if it's really true that ENTJs use their type indicator in defense of discrimination, according to the purpose for the test, they should see this as a big wake up call for altering their attitudes and behaviors.

 

[redhotswami]

Why shouldn't women be in the Infantry?

probably the same reason why there aren't any female generals or admirals.

 

[AEON]

Why shouldn't women be in the Infantry?

I think the sexual tension is an unnecessary element.

I am not saying that there are not women who can do the job. I'm certain there a few. However, it wouldn't be optimal. And in the Infantry, more than in any other element, you want as few distractions possible.

 

[redhotswami]

I didn't say they WERE close minded, I said they SEEM that way to others.

From Type Talk at Work (Kroeger, 2002) "Another waste of time, in the ENTJ's mind, is having to beat around the bush in communicating to others. Their motto: Say what needs to be said, and let the chips fall where they may." This is why ENTJs can seem closeminded and arrogant.

http://typelogic.com/entj.html

from "Unequivocating" expresses the resoluteness of the ENTJ's dominant function. Clarity of convictions endows these Thinkers with a knack for debate, or wanting knack, a penchant for argument. The light and heat generated by Thinking at the helm can be impressive; perhaps even overwhelming. Experience teaches many ENTJs that restraint may often be the better part of valor, lest one find oneself victorious but alone.


I am taking Organizational Behavior, and part of our latest assignment was to find our MBTI type. It was very interesting. You can take the assessment at humanmetrics.com. It is fun reading about the different types. It has already helped me understand my wife a lot more

And no, I'm not a homophobe.

Well, rationals aren't really the majority of the population. I'm willing to bet that the military has more guardians (SJs) than rationals (NTs), just because there are more guardians than anyone else.

 

[redhotswami]

I think the sexual tension is an unnecessary element.

I am not saying that there are not women who can do the job. I'm certain there a few. However, it wouldn't be optimal. And in the Infantry, more than in any other element, you want as few distractions possible.

What in the world?! Women are seen as distractions?? That is a damn shame that we are seen as not equals, but as distractions.

 

[anitram]

According to AEON's logic, straight men are really fucked up. I mean, they can't live in close quarters with gay men, they can't live in close quarters with women and must contemplate sexual encounters and distractions 24 hours a day. They live in a constant state of sexual tension, directed at anyone who is not another straight male. I'm surprised straight men can even get through the day. Life must be total hell.

 

[Liesje]

I think the sexual tension is an unnecessary element.

I am not saying that there are not women who can do the job. I'm certain there a few. However, it wouldn't be optimal. And in the Infantry, more than in any other element, you want as few distractions possible.

So.....since you brought up the MBTI and "organizational behavior", you're basically saying that you're model of group cohesion and communication means catering to the stubbornness and biggotedness of the ENTJs because it's just....easier? That's like the most un-Christian model of group communication I could even think of. Men are such animals, they shouldn't have to deal with women as a distraction? Wow, you're really digging your own grave on this one.

I really cannot believe I'm even reading this.

Don't ask, don't tell was a major reason, if not THE reason, I decided against enlisted at the age/place in my life where up until that point I'd always considered it a real possibility. I guess if anything your posts make me not regret that decision one single bit. If your views truly represent the attitude of our military in general, I think it's disgusting and a disgrace to this country. One more BIG leap backwards, go figure.

 

[BVS]

I'm surprised straight men can even get through the day. Life must be total hell.

Oh, you don't even know the half of it. Pure hell.

I'm just glad there are brave, intelligent, open-minded people like AEON to stand up and speak out about it.

 

[Angela Harlem]

Homophobes.

 

[redhotswami]

I guess if anything your posts make me not regret that decision one single bit.

and likewise, those posts make me not regret i got kicked out

 

[AEON]

Does your wife forbid you from being in the same room with women, due to the sexual tention?

She wouldn't want me sharing a tent with one or showering with one, that's for certain.

 

[AEON]

I'm just glad there are brave, intelligent, open-minded people like AEON to stand up and speak out about it.

Thanks BVS, I appreciate that.

 

[Liesje]

I know, how about instead of segregating women, gays, and those of minority races, the military segregates those who are too close-minded to work along side women, gays, and those of minority races?

 

[BVS]

She wouldn't want me sharing a tent with one or showering with one, that's for certain.

I guess she wouldn't allow you to be a doctor either.

 

[BVS]

Thanks BVS, I appreciate that.

No, thank you for standing up for the straight man.

 

[Angela Harlem]

i think it's brave of AEON to admit he finds women irresistable, and thus his wife is untrusting of him in close proximity to humans with vaginas.

 

[anitram]

Women. We've come so far.

 

[AEON]

I know, how about instead of segregating women, gays, and those of minority races, the military segregates those who are too close-minded to work along side women, gays, and those of minority races?

Just to clarify - I never said there was a problem with minority races in the Infantry. Half of my platoon is Hispanic American. My commanding officer is also an Hispanic American. We have a tremendous team.

I really do not see why so many of you are upset by this. According to many of the posts, we should never use the military anyway.

 

[AEON]

I guess she wouldn't allow you to be a doctor either.

They share tents and shower together?

 

[anitram]

Just to clarify - I never said there was a problem with minority races in the Infantry.

Oh, of course not!

Just those pesky chicks and gay dudes.