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Old 03-01-2007, 12:36 PM   #31
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Originally posted by MrPryck2U
Irvine, try to remember we're talking about the US military here? Fuck all this cohesion bullshit! The simple fact is that there are a lot of homophobes in the military who aren't going to serve with openly gay people. This ain't the swim team for Pete's sake!


and then, they reitre from the military, and move to Old Town Alexandria to live with their boyfriends.

you might think i'm kidding, but i'm not.

it's amazing how many ex-military men come out once they leave the armed forces.
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Old 03-01-2007, 01:34 PM   #32
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Originally posted by sulawesigirl4

So in conservative Islamic societies women are seen as sexual objects and must be separated from men in order for men not to submit to their uncontrollable base urges. You've made comments before to the effect that you want to fight so-called "Islamofascism" in order to halt the spread of such ideas. And yet here you're espousing a version of the same idea. That doesn't cause any cognitive dissonance for you?
That is such an excellent point, I look forward to the response.
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Old 03-01-2007, 01:43 PM   #33
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Originally posted by redhotswami
to be honest with you, i'm not saying EVERYONE is like this, but it was when i was in the military i saw the most overt homophobia and sexism being practiced, joked about, and even encouraged.
Out of curiosity, would you say that this kind of thinking is common in all-female groups as well? (e.g., having lesbians around would damage 'cohesion'?)
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Old 03-01-2007, 01:45 PM   #34
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Originally posted by AEON
As an Infantry Platoon Leader, I can tell you this is not a good idea. We are asked to live too close and too tight to be worried about sexual tension. This is the same reason women should not be in the Infantry.

"Male bonding" of a non-sexual type is a key component to the Infantry. Adding the sexual element would be interfering with unit cohesion - and would put lives at risk - all for the sake of making a very small minority comfortable. This is unacceptable. Is this truly about making a better Army or is it about making a political statement?

The modern Infantry is not designed for everyone. You can quote me all the articles you want about Greek soldiers and Alexander the Great - and we could debate whether or not these articles are true or simply revisionist history. There just isn't enough information about these armies. However, we have volumes and volumes of information from the Revolutionary War through today.
One of the best militaries in the world -- from a fairly conservative religious society -- would disagree with you. Israel, it seems, has seen the transition of openly homosexual military personnel with not much of a problem. I can't imagine Americans would be that backwards. Let's give Americans a shot at being progressive, non?

http://www.gaymilitary.ucsb.edu/Publ...IsraelPub1.htm

"Further, there is no evidence that the long-standing inclusion of homosexuals in the IDF has harmed operational effectiveness, combat readiness, unit cohesion, or morale in the Israeli military. In a security-conscious nation, this is simply not a concern among military personnel or the public more generally."
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Old 03-01-2007, 01:46 PM   #35
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Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen


That is such an excellent point, I look forward to the response.
I'm willing to bet money that we won't get a response...

It's an excellent point. I think many conservatives are much closer in thought and beliefs with their sworn "enemy" then any would ever admit.
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Old 03-01-2007, 01:58 PM   #36
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


I'm willing to bet money that we won't get a response...

It's an excellent point. I think many conservatives are much closer in thought and beliefs with their sworn "enemy" then any would ever admit.
And that is exactly why pro-freedom individuals should stand up against all forms of religious opression and bigotry.
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Old 03-01-2007, 02:08 PM   #37
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Originally posted by yolland

Out of curiosity, would you say that this kind of thinking is common in all-female groups as well? (e.g., having lesbians around would damage 'cohesion'?)
Interesting question. The only example I can think of at this moment are Women's Colleges. I've never attended one myself, however in my experience visiting RMWC and Hollins, I certainly didn't see that sort of thinking expressed nor that behavior exhibited. The atmosphere was all inclusive.
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Old 03-01-2007, 02:10 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Judah


One of the best militaries in the world -- from a fairly conservative religious society -- would disagree with you. Israel, it seems, has seen the transition of openly homosexual military personnel with not much of a problem. I can't imagine Americans would be that backwards. Let's give Americans a shot at being progressive, non?

http://www.gaymilitary.ucsb.edu/Publ...IsraelPub1.htm

"Further, there is no evidence that the long-standing inclusion of homosexuals in the IDF has harmed operational effectiveness, combat readiness, unit cohesion, or morale in the Israeli military. In a security-conscious nation, this is simply not a concern among military personnel or the public more generally."
heh. I was totally debating whether or not to post info about Israel's military. Thanks for doing this!!
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Old 03-01-2007, 02:19 PM   #39
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Maybe most female bonding is about real emotions and relating in real ways that have nothing to do with sex or sexual orientation, whereas most male bonding (at least in the military) exists in some bizarro world. Sorry, I just don't get the whole notion.

Seems to me what makes for a strong military is having members who can have genuine respect and caring for all types of people, regardless of gender, race, sexual orientation. That's what real strength is. If they can't, well I think you end up with a boatload of problems. And we do.
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Old 03-01-2007, 02:36 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by redhotswami
Interesting question. The only example I can think of at this moment are Women's Colleges.
Oh, I was more thinking of women soldiers specifically. Since for example the 'close-quarters' situation of female athletes in locker rooms came up in another recent thread, and several observed at that time that in their experience discomfort with having a lesbian teammate in the locker room just wasn't an issue for female athletes. I was wondering if this was the case with female soldiers, as well. Perhaps you weren't personally in a situation like that though.
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Old 03-01-2007, 02:40 PM   #41
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Hm, you are in the heat of a battle, fighting for your life, and the only thing you think about is whether your openly gay comrade would jump on you in an 'explosion' of sexual desire?

I don't think that's anywhere near reality.
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Old 03-01-2007, 02:45 PM   #42
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Originally posted by Vincent Vega
Hm, you are in the heat of a battle, fighting for your life, and the only thing you think about is whether your openly gay comrade would jump on you in an 'explosion' of sexual desire?

I don't think that's anywhere near reality.
Exactly!!!

It's just a lie people tell themselves to mask their own hatreds and sexism.
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Old 03-01-2007, 03:35 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega
Hm, you are in the heat of a battle, fighting for your life, and the only thing you think about is whether your openly gay comrade would jump on you in an 'explosion' of sexual desire?

I don't think that's anywhere near reality.


but it could make for some really hot porn ...
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Old 03-01-2007, 05:10 PM   #44
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^
That would define the job of a war photographer totally new
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Old 03-01-2007, 05:27 PM   #45
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I'm still looking for a good explanation as to why straight men apparently often have this reaction to the idea of sharing a locker room or barracks with gay men, whereas straight women apparently seldom have that reaction with lesbians.
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