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Old 03-05-2007, 06:41 PM   #271
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I suppose you mean that you think there should be ZERO discrimination of ANY kind? So the NBA should be forced to allow 4 foot 3 inch Centers because to deny them the chance to play and earn millions is discriminatory? How about MLB pitcher without both arms?

Not all discrimination is the same.
there is an NBA player that is head and shoulders smaller than the average

I guess he was about 5' 8" or something

and he made the pros because he had skills and good outside shooting


and there was a ML pitcher with one arm.

Again he made the Majors, because he had the skills

but, first they both got an equal chance to tryout
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Old 03-05-2007, 06:51 PM   #272
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So a gay man would automatically know that I wasn't gay? How so?
Gay men know I am not gay.

I guess it is because I am very clear about my sexuality.

And if a gay men started to chat me up,
I would just say, "Hey, I'm straight."

It might be like if I started talking to your wife and she said "Hey, I'm married."

Your wife would let me know she is not in a group that is available to me. and I would move on because I would not want to waste my time.


If I was stranded in the woods with your wife and it was below freezing I hope you would appreciate that if we cuddled to survive, it would not be wrong.


I would hope that if you were stranded with my girlfriend and it was freezing you would keep each other alive without trying any inappropriate behavior.
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Old 03-05-2007, 07:01 PM   #273
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Originally posted by deep


Gay men know I am not gay.

I guess it is because I am very clear about my sexuality.

And if a gay men started to chat me up,
I would just say, "Hey, I'm straight."

It might be like if I started talking to your wife and she said "Hey, I'm married."

Your wife would let me know she is not in a group that is available to me. and I would move on because I would not want to waste my time.


If I was stranded in the woods with your wife and it was below freezing I hope you would appreciate that if we cuddled to survive, it would not be wrong.


I would hope that if you were stranded with my girlfriend and it was freezing you would keep each other alive without trying any inappropriate behavior.
how is one clear about their sexuality. Are you admitting there are some "stereotypical" traits of homosexual males?

I have agreed that cuddling to survive is just that - cuddling to survive. My point is that we should not FORCE (which the Army must do in order to train) a heterosexual man to be spooned by a homosexual man.
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Old 03-05-2007, 07:01 PM   #274
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Jim Abbott was the pitcher, and he had no right hand. There are professional athletes with handicaps of one sort or another. Being gay is not a hindrance to any skill that is required for the military.

This is Eric Alva-Irvine mentioned him earlier in the thread. When you look at him what do you see? He is a fellow soldier. I know what I see, and it has nothing at all to do with sex or being gay.



http://www.hrc.org/alva/dadt.html

“Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell, Don’t Pursue, Don’t Harass” — the current U.S. policy on gays in the military — is the only law in the country that forces people to be dishonest about their personal lives or be fired or possibly imprisoned. This discriminatory policy hurts military readiness and national security while putting American soldiers fighting overseas at risk. As recently stated by John M. Shalikashvili, former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and former supporter of “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell,” the lift of the ban is inevitable. “When that day comes, gay men and lesbians will no longer have to conceal who they are, and the military will no longer need to sacrifice those whose service it cannot afford to lose.”

The Military Readiness Enhancement Act remedies this discriminatory and unworkable policy and replaces DADT with a policy of non-discrimination. MREA was introduced in the 109th House of Representatives by Rep. Martin Meehan, D-Mass., with 122 bipartisan co-sponsors and will be reintroduced in the 110th Congress.
‘Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell’ Poses Exorbitant Costs to the Military and Nation.

* Nearly 800 specialists with critical skills have been fired from the U.S. military under DADT, including 323 linguists, 55 of whom specialized in Arabic (Government Accountability Office report).
* At least 65,000 gay, lesbian and bisexual Americans are already protecting our homeland (Urban Institute report). More than 10,000 have been discharged under DADT since the policy was implemented in 1993.
* American taxpayers have paid between $250 million and $1.2 billion to investigate, eliminate and replace qualified, patriotic service members who want to serve their country but can’t because expressing their sexual orientation violates DADT (Government Accountability Office report). That money could be better spent on at least a dozen Blackhawk helicopters, armored plates for tanks and Humvees or Kevlar body armor for troops.
* U.S. military forces cannot afford to lose any troops who can do their jobs, as evidenced by recent call-ups of the Army Reserve.

Americans Support Allowing Gays and Lesbians to Serve Openly.

The vast majority of Americans support the right of service members to serve openly and honestly, and the majority of service members are comfortable serving alongside gay and lesbian troops. In addition, numerous allies in the war on terror allow gays and lesbians to serve openly and proudly.

* Sixty-seven percent of civilians support allowing gays to serve openly (Annenberg 2004 survey). In 2003, Fox News reported 64 percent support, and the Gallup organization 79 percent, on a similar question.
* Nearly three in four troops (73 percent) say they are personally comfortable in the presence of gays and lesbians (Zogby International & the Michael D. Palm Center 2006 study).

* One in four U.S. troops who served in Afghanistan or Iraq knows a member of their unit who is gay. More than 55 percent of the troops who know a gay colleague said the presence of gays or lesbians in their unit is well-known by others (Zogby International). The DADT policy serves no purpose, as troops already know and are comfortable serving alongside gays and lesbians.

* All published Pentagon studies, including the 1993 Rand Report, conclude that there should be no special restrictions on service by gay personnel.

* Twenty-four other nations, including Great Britain, Australia, Canada and Israel, already allow open service by gays and lesbians, and none of the 24 report morale or recruitment problems. Nine nations allowing open service have fought alongside American troops in Operation Iraqi Freedom. In addition, 12 nations allowing open service fought alongside U.S. troops in Operation Enduring Freedom.

* Twenty-three of the 26 NATO nations allow gays and lesbians to serve openly and proudly. The United States, Turkey and Portugal are the only NATO nations that forbid gays and lesbians to serve openly in the armed services.

* Federal CIA, FBI, Defense Intelligence Agency and Secret Service agents all serve proudly as openly gay and lesbian personnel fighting the war on terrorism.

Countless gay, lesbian and bisexual Americans have and will continue to serve in the U.S. military with distinction. The only question is whether they will have to lie about their sexual orientation to do so. Since enactment of the “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” policy, numerous gay and lesbian troops have served openly while pending discharge with no effect on unit performance, readiness, cohesion or morale. Moreover, U.S. military personnel are already serving side-by-side with openly gay service members — with no identifiable negative effects — in and from countries throughout the world. Former Defense Secretary William Cohen agrees — the ban is discriminatory, and “We’re hearing from within the military what we’re hearing from within society, that we’re becoming a much more open, tolerant society for diverse opinions and orientation.” We must end this discriminatory policy sooner rather than later and ensure that the U.S. military can recruit and retain the best and the brightest troops regardless of their sexual orientation.
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Old 03-05-2007, 07:05 PM   #275
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep


there is an NBA player that is head and shoulders smaller than the average

I guess he was about 5' 8" or something

and he made the pros because he had skills and good outside shooting


and there was a ML pitcher with one arm.

Again he made the Majors, because he had the skills

but, first they both got an equal chance to tryout
These are good points, and I actually use points similar to these when arguing against affirmative action.

However, your examples are proof of another form of discrimination. These players were selected based on "talent" and "ability." This can be seen as unfair and discriminatory to those without such talent and ability.
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Old 03-05-2007, 07:08 PM   #276
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


My point is that we should not FORCE (which the Army must do in order to train) a heterosexual man to be spooned by a homosexual man.

I don't have much interest in spooning with any men.

But if I had to for training
it would not matter to me.

If a man was straight or gay.
My main concern would be for good hygiene.


Would it matter to you
if you had to spoon with
"insert some female that is completely unattractive to you, for reasons of size, age, or whatever"
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Old 03-05-2007, 07:11 PM   #277
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


These are good points, and I actually use points similar to these when arguing against affirmative action.

However, your examples are proof of another form of discrimination. These players were selected based on "talent" and "ability." This can be seen as unfair and discriminatory to those without such talent and ability.
don't you think you are stretching it a bit here

these are professionals

they are selected based on skill?
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Old 03-05-2007, 07:16 PM   #278
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The issue is not to make assumptions about talent and ability, what someone will do or what they won't. Fair shot. If you don't cut it, then you don't cut it. If you do, you do. No dummy down, no variations in strength, endurance (IF those things matter) Use the best skills and be creative in the use of the skills.

By the way, very nice picture, AEON. How did your drill go? And if you are deployed, I wish you safety.
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Old 03-05-2007, 07:22 PM   #279
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i know! we're losing a war to Arab teenagers right now. you'd think there'd be bigger concerns.
Just a small correction. We are losing a war to the Democrats.
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Old 03-05-2007, 07:30 PM   #280
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Just a small correction. We are losing a war to the Democrats.
do you really believe the stuff you write?

we are losing a war because of stupidity, misrepresentations and outright lies
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Old 03-05-2007, 07:32 PM   #281
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So a gay man would automatically know that I wasn't gay? How so?


perhaps because he's in the marines with you and it's a fairly safe assumption, AND there's a thing called gaydar.

is that really what the fear is? someone might think you're gay?
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Old 03-05-2007, 07:34 PM   #282
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how is one clear about their sexuality. Are you admitting there are some "stereotypical" traits of homosexual males?


it's beginning to look like homophobia is a "stereotypical" traight of heterosexual marine.
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Old 03-05-2007, 07:35 PM   #283
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Just a small correction. We are losing a war to the Democrats.
Yes, because of people thinking like this.

As long as you are waging a useless and outright stupid war against yourself, based on really nothing, you can't defeat any enemy from the outside.

Democrats aren't hating you, Democrats aren't going to kill you, and Democrats aren't wanting in any way their own country going down.
They share basically the same values, philosophy and way of life.
Stop ignoring this and focus on the real enemy.

When you make gays and Democrats your personal enemy it's no wonder that you are destracted all the time. Keep a clear mind, focus on the right issue, and stop fooling yourself.
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Old 03-05-2007, 07:35 PM   #284
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Originally posted by BonosSaint
If you don't cut it, then you don't cut it. If you do, you do. No dummy down, no variations in strength, endurance (IF those things matter) Use the best skills and be creative in the use of the skills.
I can accept this.

Quote:
Originally posted by BonosSaint

By the way, very nice picture, AEON. How did your drill go? And if you are deployed, I wish you safety.
Thanks. Drill went well. Thanks for asking. I had to do a presentation on the 5 Paragraph Operation Order and I used clips from the movie "Gettysburg" to hi-light my points.

If I get deployed the hardest part will be leaving my family for a year plus. Missing out on a year of memories is a tough thing to sacrifice. But if men like me don't go - who will?
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Old 03-05-2007, 07:35 PM   #285
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I'm not a monster...seriously...
I'm reminded that one should never judge a book by its cover.
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