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Old 03-03-2007, 09:51 AM   #241
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON
I tend to seperate ideas from people. I am always searching for the "perfect" system or organization. While I am not a perfectionist, when it comes to theories - I enjoy discussing what would make something "Ideal" instead of "workable"or "fair."
In other words, your religious beliefs preclude you from recognizing or acknowledging gay people whatsoever, and, as such, you must find every opportunity to denigrate, belittle, and banish everything about them from your life.

And, yet, we're supposed to care every little time social conservatives' feelings get hurt if some damn nativity display isn't put up in December. Yup...it certainly is all about ideas before people.
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Old 03-03-2007, 09:53 AM   #242
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Originally posted by Justin24
Why should we label someone with a word. I mean we are against labeling black people as N____, white people as honkey or white devils, so why use a word to label people, even bigot? Why not just ignore them or forgive them and just continue with your lives?
A little "sympathy for the devil," I see?
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Old 03-03-2007, 11:39 AM   #243
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People are more important than ideas, and if you can't understand that AEON well I feel sorry for you. In your posts throughout this whole thread you have reduced women in the military to nothing but "hysterical" T and A, and gay men to sex maniacs who are out to harass their fellow straight soldiers. It is IDEAL that we don't do things like that, it is 2007.

It is about so much more than "hurting peoples feelings", and I can't comprehend how you don't seem to understand that. Someone telling me I don't look good in an outfit hurts my feelings. Reducing my entire gender to T and A, well that is a whole different thing altogether. It is about degrading women and gay people and acting as if they are less than you and inferior.

And you seem to be thinking that certain comments directed at you that aren't intended to be funny are.
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Old 03-03-2007, 01:47 PM   #244
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What does T and A actually stand for?
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Old 03-03-2007, 02:03 PM   #245
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Tits and Ass
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Old 03-03-2007, 02:15 PM   #246
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d'oh, so obvious

Thank you
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Old 03-03-2007, 02:23 PM   #247
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON

I tend to seperate ideas from people. I am always searching for the "perfect" system or organization. While I am not a perfectionist, when it comes to theories - I enjoy discussing what would make something "Ideal" instead of "workable"or "fair."
I really would like to know just how you perceive something as ideal if it isn't fair. Isn't fairness one of the hallmarks of being ideal?
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Old 03-05-2007, 04:10 PM   #248
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Originally posted by yolland
I think Irvine and MrsS have already answered this by pointing out that the analogy is false; the logical analogy would be forcing straight women to do these things with lesbians, which again, I haven't seen widespread evidence of straight female revulsion towards.
There are no real analogies that would be the perfect fit. Even the lesbian analogy fails because the male/female “sex drives” are different.
Quote:
Originally posted by yolland
Furthermore, I don't see expecting a female soldier to willingly huddle with a male soldier in order to stave off hypothermia as 'sexual harassment'; sexual harassment would be if the male soldier reacted to the situation by groping her or dropping a string of vulgar come-ons.
I disagree. Choosing to huddle close to survive is one thing. Purposely putting a female into a position where she must huddle with a man in a spooning position in order to pass the course or stay in the unit is sexual harassment.



Quote:
Originally posted by yolland
And Irvine already explained the reason for having separate showers for men and women--it's simply a continutation of basic gender socialization practices in our society which people of both sexes have observed from childhood;
Couldn’t Hardaway use that defense? Would you accept it if I said that we should keep gays our out of the Infantry because it's simply a continuation of basic sexual orientation socialization practices in our society which people of both sexual orientations have observed from childhood;


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Originally posted by yolland
a question of what's perceived as an appropriate audience for exposing one's nakedness. A member of the Shuri, Mursi or Me'en peoples of Ethiopia, who customarily wear no clothing at all, might see this as bizarre, but that's OK; we're not the Shuri, Mursi or Me'en so there's no logical need to change that particular custom, as it's not a major issue to supply separate barracks and showers for male and female servicepeople. Gay men and lesbians, on the other hand, have spent their lives sharing the bathroom, locker room, dorm bunks etc. with fully or partially naked members of their own sex, so there's no titillating shock factor provoked by sense of 'inappropriateness' there.
However, the heterosexual men don’t want the gay men showering them. If they have gone “unnoticed” it was a good thing. Forcing a heterosexual man to shower with an openly gay man is forcing the straight man to surrender what he believes is appropriate. It seems you dismiss “tradition” in one hand, and then use “tradition” as a defense in the other.

Quote:
Originally posted by yolland
It's of course reasonable to expect that gay and lesbian servicepeople will refrain from molesting their bunkmates, just as it's reasonable to expect that straight servicemen will refrain from doing the same with female soldiers they work with at various points; it's not reasonable, however, to assume that any of the above are so innately inclined to do so as to make letting them serve unwise. That was exactly the argument often made in the 19th century for why women don't belong in the workplace: both men and women would be rendered incompetent by being continuously sexually distracted, thus the workplace would be 'degraded' and its efficient functioning made impossible.
The work around the office is much different than the work in the Infantry. This is an unfair comparison. For instance, my desk not job does not require me to shower naked with women nor does it require that I “spoon” with them to stay warm.
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Instead, it turns out that men and women are eminently capable of working together in all kinds of arenas without transforming into incompetent libidinal beasts.
Depends on the job situation.
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Originally posted by yolland
The only reason that argument ever made sense to anyone to begin with was because of the irrational assumption that simply having both sexes together in the workplace would automatically make that environment a sexual one, and it does indeed resemble 'Islamic extremist' thinking.
In every office that I’ve ever worked in there is indeed a sexual environment. There are affairs, jealousies, flirtations, harassment, etc. I’m not saying that the office needs to be segregated. I’m just saying that there is indeed a sexual environment that exists and you must choose not to participate in order to avoid it.
Quote:
Originally posted by yolland
It seems to me that you're looking at the presence of gay and lesbian soldiers in their respective sex-segregated units in precisely the same way: you assume, without rational cause, that it would automatically make that environment sexual.
I’m not a psychologist; so I can’t offer much other than some basic undergraduate Psychology 101 thinking. But I remember reading that men have a sexual thought once every minute (is it more or less?). This “problem” is even more exaggerated in the military since most of the men serving are in their late teens and early twenties.

Again, the men in the Infantry are asked to perform a nearly impossible task with an almost incomprehensible amount of physical and mental stress. They need to have total focus, the sort of focus that can lead to life or death. The LAST thing they need another distraction. Allowing openly gay men to serve in their units adds a distraction whether people want to admit or not. I simply do not see why it is so difficult for non-Infantry to understand this.
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Old 03-05-2007, 04:19 PM   #249
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I disagree. Choosing to huddle close to survive is one thing. Purposely putting a female into a position where she must huddle with a man in a spooning position in order to pass the course or stay in the unit is sexual harassment.
What makes someone uncomfortable and what feels inappropriate is defined by the person placed in that situation, but thanks for trying to tell me what I am or am not comfortable with Spooning with people I don't know well (men and women) to stay warm - been there, done that. Now if someone had made kissy noises and tried to cop a feel, yeah that's offensive.

Quote:
However, the heterosexual men don’t want the gay men showering them. If they have gone “unnoticed” it was a good thing. Forcing a heterosexual man to shower with an openly gay man is forcing the straight man to surrender what he believes is appropriate. It seems you dismiss “tradition” in one hand, and then use “tradition” as a defense in the other.
I've never really been comfortable showering with other women or even seeing them shower even if they are comfortable with it. You know what I do? Turn away, or just wait until they are done. After all, it's MY problem I'm not comfortable with it. It doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to come to the gym.
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Old 03-05-2007, 04:23 PM   #250
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Couldn't you have just let this thread die?
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Old 03-05-2007, 04:52 PM   #251
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ormus


In other words, your religious beliefs preclude you from recognizing or acknowledging gay people whatsoever, and, as such, you must find every opportunity to denigrate, belittle, and banish everything about them from your life.
This is completely false.
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Old 03-05-2007, 05:30 PM   #252
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


This is completely false.


you don't see your posts about not wanting to shower or cuddle with a gay person as not being degrading and belittling and expressing a desire to banish them from whatever sphere you choose?

is it also not perfectly logical to take your previous post and substitute the word "black" for "gay" and you'd get a 1950s-era justification for the maintenance of a racially segregated army?
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Old 03-05-2007, 05:55 PM   #253
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland

The only reason that argument ever made sense to anyone to begin with was because of the irrational assumption that simply having both sexes together in the workplace would automatically make that environment a sexual one, and it does indeed resemble 'Islamic extremist' thinking.
Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


In every office that I’ve ever worked in there is indeed a sexual environment. There are affairs, jealousies, flirtations, harassment, etc. I’m not saying that the office needs to be segregated. I’m just saying that there is indeed a sexual environment that exists and you must choose not to participate in order to avoid it.


"In every office that I’ve ever worked in there is indeed a sexual environment"

What is the common denominator here?

What or who is the real problem?
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Old 03-05-2007, 05:57 PM   #254
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It's the same old reason: I'm uncomfortable, so it's okay to discriminate.

I guess now we can see why there's a difference between "ideal" and "fair."
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Old 03-05-2007, 05:58 PM   #255
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it's all about putting people above ideas. oh, hang on... what a backflip!
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