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Old 03-02-2007, 11:11 AM   #166
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Originally posted by Shaliz


Okay, I just have one question...which one of you would actually be thinking about having sex in this survival situation? Is the heterosexual guy worried he might have a sudden urge? I mean, come on!

I seriously think a big part of the problem is that too many people still think being gay is all about sex.


i think what it's about is if a gay and a straight were cuddling together, and suddenly the straight man got an erection, it's the gay guy's fault.
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Old 03-02-2007, 11:32 AM   #167
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Forget it, I'm not even going to bother.

It's a sad social statement that we have a bigot and a sexist as an LEADER in the Infantry. No wonder the military is still stuck in the middle ages.

And A_Wanderer can argue all he wants about physical feats of strength: apparently he missed all of AEON's posts alluding to women being a distraction and women coming on to him in tents as if he's that attractive to us. His physical strength argument and his team bonding argument are NOTHING more than a colourable attempt to promote sexist and homophobic policies by trying to make it seem like his policy is really about something entirely different. It isn't.
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Old 03-02-2007, 11:44 AM   #168
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define "his".
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Old 03-02-2007, 11:53 AM   #169
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Oh, please, I'm not going to quibble here with you, we're not at an academic conference.

You know exactly what I'm saying in my post, and if you don't, then forget it.

This thread is completely absurd.
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Old 03-02-2007, 11:56 AM   #170
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It's not quibbling; either AEON is a sexist and homophobic bigot, I am a sexist and homophobic bigot or both of us are.
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Old 03-02-2007, 12:00 PM   #171
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He is.

You are just giving logical justification to his sexism - but your POV is not where he is coming from. He is driven by sexism and bigotry and then trying to pass these things off as acceptable under the guise of physical strength and team bonding. It's fucking pathetic.
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Old 03-02-2007, 12:01 PM   #172
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Well im fine with that
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Old 03-02-2007, 12:10 PM   #173
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Didn't this very same discussion go on when the military was going to integrate? What about those poor white soldiers who were "uncomfortable" fighting, or "team-building" with a black soldier next to them?


AEON, whatever credibility you may have had, and it wasn't all that much, your insane homophobia has eliminated it. I'm sure someday you'll join us in the 21st century, but it'll be a long hard trip for you.
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Old 03-02-2007, 12:25 PM   #174
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
He is.

You are just giving logical justification to his sexism - but your POV is not where he is coming from. He is driven by sexism and bigotry and then trying to pass these things off as acceptable under the guise of physical strength and team bonding. It's fucking pathetic.
You know - the name calling is getting a bit out of hand. Can't someone express views contradictory to the majority here without being called names and hearing "F*** You?" I thought you were a law student, anitram. Do they allow this talk in the court room?

I know that my opinions can be troubling to some. I also find many opinions in FYM troubling. That being said - it honestly isn't fun for me to post on non-controversial issues. And believe it or not, I do try to understand all POVs even if I don't agree with them. I have learned quite a bit.

What I haven't seen in this thread is an answer to this question:

How is it that forcing a heterosexual male to cuddle and shower with a homosexual male is not considered sexual harassment, when it would be considered sexual harassment if we forced a woman to do these things with a heterosexual man? That is the basis of my female/homosexual male comparison.

I have given logical, coherent reasons to justify my opinions. Instead of a series of insults and F bombs, I’d like to see if anyone that disagrees with me can offer some well thought out points that contradict mine.
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Old 03-02-2007, 12:30 PM   #175
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Huddling is much more utilitarian than cuddling.
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Old 03-02-2007, 12:31 PM   #176
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Originally posted by martha



AEON, whatever credibility you may have had, and it wasn't all that much, your insane homophobia has eliminated it.

I find it sad that you must refer to my opinions as insane homophobia simply because I do not feel it is necessary to force heterosexual men to huddle and shower with homosexual males.
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Old 03-02-2007, 12:32 PM   #177
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Originally posted by AEON

You know - the name calling is getting a bit out of hand. Can't someone express views contradictory to the majority here without being called names and hearing "F*** You?" I thought you were a law student, anitram. Do they allow this talk in the court room?
Please, get over yourself. Are we in the court room?

I wasn't calling you names. I honestly and reasonably believe you are a sexist and a bigot based on the things you've said here over and over again. Those are, IMO, accurate representations of your views.
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Old 03-02-2007, 12:38 PM   #178
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Originally posted by AEON


What I haven't seen in this thread is an answer to this question:

How is it that forcing a heterosexual male to cuddle and shower with a homosexual male is not considered sexual harassment, when it would be considered sexual harassment if we forced a woman to do these things with a heterosexual man? That is the basis of my female/homosexual male comparison.

Who said that the male/female huddle is automatically sexual harassment? It's a survival technique, definitely not unique to the military. I've done it before on a few occasions (really cold, trying to hide, etc), sometimes with people I'd only met for the first time just hours before, and I've never felt any "sexual tension" or cried harassment. The notion that men and women are so Freudian we can't be near each other without there automatically being tension is pretty laughable.

If women pass the required tests (and I DO agree that they should be the same for all genders, races, and sexual orientations), than I'd assume it's just part of the job, having to sometimes huddle in tents or foxholes. If women or men are uncomfortable with this, they should not enlist or find a military job that doesn't involve huddling.

I guess for me it's so simple, I can't see why it's even worth bringing up.
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Old 03-02-2007, 12:59 PM   #179
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON

What I haven't seen in this thread is an answer to this question:

How is it that forcing a heterosexual male to cuddle and shower with a homosexual male is not considered sexual harassment, when it would be considered sexual harassment if we forced a woman to do these things with a heterosexual man? That is the basis of my female/homosexual male comparison.

I have given logical, coherent reasons to justify my opinions. Instead of a series of insults and F bombs, I’d like to see if anyone that disagrees with me can offer some well thought out points that contradict mine.


if you had any idea how insulting your comments were, you'd understand where the "fuck you" -- which i did retract -- came from. but you don't understand, and i'm doing my best to present a point of view that you don't seem to have time for.

and, i'm sorry, you have not given a single logical, coherent reason to justify your opinions beyond what is homophobia, pure and simple. if you have an issue cuddling and showering with a gay person, then you need to get over it just like white soldiers were once uncomfortable showering and cuddling (is that really waht you do?) with black soldiers or hispanic soldiers or asian soldiers. the basis of your fear is irrational and we know it's irrational because gay men and women have served in the army, including the infantry, and it hasn't been a problem.

again, most of your questions -- is this sexual harassment !?!? -- were well answered in the Tim Hardaway thread. it isn't sexual harassment because gay men and straight men are both ... men. you have the same anatomy. there is no sexual component when gays and straights shower together in the way that there would be if men and women were to shower together because gay and straight men have been showering together for their entirely lives. gay men are perfectly comfortable hanging around with naked men in a way that straight men are not comfortable hanging around with naked women.

your analogy, that a man (any man) is to a gay man as a woman is to a straight man ignores so many basic cultural practices and socialized behavior that it is a false analogy. it's convenient, to be sure, but it's still false, and seems little more than a veiled justification for homophobia while at the same time asserting your own heterosexuality as if it's an unassaiable good.
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Old 03-02-2007, 01:10 PM   #180
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Quote:
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I have given logical, coherent reasons to justify my opinions.
You certainly have not!!!
I keep asking you OVER and OVER and OVER again this same question. You have not been answering this question. You keep ignoring it and instead choose to derail the original nature of this thread by flooding it with your personal opinion disguised as the military's values. I am going to post it one more time. I'm asking you, AEON, please answer me this one question:

Quote:
Originally posted by redhotswami
Again, I ask you. Since they are already in the military, what is so wrong about letting them say that they are gay? They are already there serving, just as anybody else. Even though I don't agree with you saying there will be sexual tension, what I'm pointing out is that the potential "sexual tension" which you think will be added is already there because THERE ARE CURRENTLY GAYS IN THE MILITARY.
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