Don't Ask Don't Tell

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AEON said:


I suppose you mean that you think there should be ZERO discrimination of ANY kind? So the NBA should be forced to allow 4 foot 3 inch Centers because to deny them the chance to play and earn millions is discriminatory? How about MLB pitcher without both arms?

Not all discrimination is the same.

there is an NBA player that is head and shoulders smaller than the average

I guess he was about 5' 8" or something

and he made the pros because he had skills and good outside shooting


and there was a ML pitcher with one arm.

Again he made the Majors, because he had the skills

but, first they both got an equal chance to tryout
 
AEON said:


So a gay man would automatically know that I wasn't gay? How so?

Gay men know I am not gay.

I guess it is because I am very clear about my sexuality.

And if a gay men started to chat me up,
I would just say, "Hey, I'm straight."

It might be like if I started talking to your wife and she said "Hey, I'm married."

Your wife would let me know she is not in a group that is available to me. and I would move on because I would not want to waste my time. :shrug:


If I was stranded in the woods with your wife and it was below freezing I hope you would appreciate that if we cuddled to survive, it would not be wrong.


I would hope that if you were stranded with my girlfriend and it was freezing you would keep each other alive without trying any inappropriate behavior.
 
deep said:


Gay men know I am not gay.

I guess it is because I am very clear about my sexuality.

And if a gay men started to chat me up,
I would just say, "Hey, I'm straight."

It might be like if I started talking to your wife and she said "Hey, I'm married."

Your wife would let me know she is not in a group that is available to me. and I would move on because I would not want to waste my time. :shrug:


If I was stranded in the woods with your wife and it was below freezing I hope you would appreciate that if we cuddled to survive, it would not be wrong.


I would hope that if you were stranded with my girlfriend and it was freezing you would keep each other alive without trying any inappropriate behavior.

how is one clear about their sexuality. Are you admitting there are some "stereotypical" traits of homosexual males?

I have agreed that cuddling to survive is just that - cuddling to survive. My point is that we should not FORCE (which the Army must do in order to train) a heterosexual man to be spooned by a homosexual man.
 
Jim Abbott was the pitcher, and he had no right hand. There are professional athletes with handicaps of one sort or another. Being gay is not a hindrance to any skill that is required for the military.

This is Eric Alva-Irvine mentioned him earlier in the thread. When you look at him what do you see? He is a fellow soldier. I know what I see, and it has nothing at all to do with sex or being gay.

alva-61.jpg


http://www.hrc.org/alva/dadt.html

“Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell, Don’t Pursue, Don’t Harass” — the current U.S. policy on gays in the military — is the only law in the country that forces people to be dishonest about their personal lives or be fired or possibly imprisoned. This discriminatory policy hurts military readiness and national security while putting American soldiers fighting overseas at risk. As recently stated by John M. Shalikashvili, former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and former supporter of “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell,” the lift of the ban is inevitable. “When that day comes, gay men and lesbians will no longer have to conceal who they are, and the military will no longer need to sacrifice those whose service it cannot afford to lose.”

The Military Readiness Enhancement Act remedies this discriminatory and unworkable policy and replaces DADT with a policy of non-discrimination. MREA was introduced in the 109th House of Representatives by Rep. Martin Meehan, D-Mass., with 122 bipartisan co-sponsors and will be reintroduced in the 110th Congress.
‘Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell’ Poses Exorbitant Costs to the Military and Nation.

* Nearly 800 specialists with critical skills have been fired from the U.S. military under DADT, including 323 linguists, 55 of whom specialized in Arabic (Government Accountability Office report).
* At least 65,000 gay, lesbian and bisexual Americans are already protecting our homeland (Urban Institute report). More than 10,000 have been discharged under DADT since the policy was implemented in 1993.
* American taxpayers have paid between $250 million and $1.2 billion to investigate, eliminate and replace qualified, patriotic service members who want to serve their country but can’t because expressing their sexual orientation violates DADT (Government Accountability Office report). That money could be better spent on at least a dozen Blackhawk helicopters, armored plates for tanks and Humvees or Kevlar body armor for troops.
* U.S. military forces cannot afford to lose any troops who can do their jobs, as evidenced by recent call-ups of the Army Reserve.

Americans Support Allowing Gays and Lesbians to Serve Openly.

The vast majority of Americans support the right of service members to serve openly and honestly, and the majority of service members are comfortable serving alongside gay and lesbian troops. In addition, numerous allies in the war on terror allow gays and lesbians to serve openly and proudly.

* Sixty-seven percent of civilians support allowing gays to serve openly (Annenberg 2004 survey). In 2003, Fox News reported 64 percent support, and the Gallup organization 79 percent, on a similar question.
* Nearly three in four troops (73 percent) say they are personally comfortable in the presence of gays and lesbians (Zogby International & the Michael D. Palm Center 2006 study).

* One in four U.S. troops who served in Afghanistan or Iraq knows a member of their unit who is gay. More than 55 percent of the troops who know a gay colleague said the presence of gays or lesbians in their unit is well-known by others (Zogby International). The DADT policy serves no purpose, as troops already know and are comfortable serving alongside gays and lesbians.

* All published Pentagon studies, including the 1993 Rand Report, conclude that there should be no special restrictions on service by gay personnel.

* Twenty-four other nations, including Great Britain, Australia, Canada and Israel, already allow open service by gays and lesbians, and none of the 24 report morale or recruitment problems. Nine nations allowing open service have fought alongside American troops in Operation Iraqi Freedom. In addition, 12 nations allowing open service fought alongside U.S. troops in Operation Enduring Freedom.

* Twenty-three of the 26 NATO nations allow gays and lesbians to serve openly and proudly. The United States, Turkey and Portugal are the only NATO nations that forbid gays and lesbians to serve openly in the armed services.

* Federal CIA, FBI, Defense Intelligence Agency and Secret Service agents all serve proudly as openly gay and lesbian personnel fighting the war on terrorism.

Countless gay, lesbian and bisexual Americans have and will continue to serve in the U.S. military with distinction. The only question is whether they will have to lie about their sexual orientation to do so. Since enactment of the “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” policy, numerous gay and lesbian troops have served openly while pending discharge with no effect on unit performance, readiness, cohesion or morale. Moreover, U.S. military personnel are already serving side-by-side with openly gay service members — with no identifiable negative effects — in and from countries throughout the world. Former Defense Secretary William Cohen agrees — the ban is discriminatory, and “We’re hearing from within the military what we’re hearing from within society, that we’re becoming a much more open, tolerant society for diverse opinions and orientation.” We must end this discriminatory policy sooner rather than later and ensure that the U.S. military can recruit and retain the best and the brightest troops regardless of their sexual orientation.
 
deep said:


there is an NBA player that is head and shoulders smaller than the average

I guess he was about 5' 8" or something

and he made the pros because he had skills and good outside shooting


and there was a ML pitcher with one arm.

Again he made the Majors, because he had the skills

but, first they both got an equal chance to tryout

These are good points, and I actually use points similar to these when arguing against affirmative action.

However, your examples are proof of another form of discrimination. These players were selected based on "talent" and "ability." This can be seen as unfair and discriminatory to those without such talent and ability.
 
AEON said:


My point is that we should not FORCE (which the Army must do in order to train) a heterosexual man to be spooned by a homosexual man.


I don't have much interest in spooning with any men.

But if I had to for training
it would not matter to me.

If a man was straight or gay.
My main concern would be for good hygiene.


Would it matter to you
if you had to spoon with
"insert some female that is completely unattractive to you, for reasons of size, age, or whatever"
 
AEON said:


These are good points, and I actually use points similar to these when arguing against affirmative action.

However, your examples are proof of another form of discrimination. These players were selected based on "talent" and "ability." This can be seen as unfair and discriminatory to those without such talent and ability.

don't you think you are stretching it a bit here

these are professionals

they are selected based on skill?
 
The issue is not to make assumptions about talent and ability, what someone will do or what they won't. Fair shot. If you don't cut it, then you don't cut it. If you do, you do. No dummy down, no variations in strength, endurance (IF those things matter) Use the best skills and be creative in the use of the skills.

By the way, very nice picture, AEON. How did your drill go? And if you are deployed, I wish you safety.
 
Irvine511 said:




i know! we're losing a war to Arab teenagers right now. you'd think there'd be bigger concerns.

Just a small correction. We are losing a war to the Democrats.
 
AEON said:


Just a small correction. We are losing a war to the Democrats.

do you really believe the stuff you write?

we are losing a war because of stupidity, misrepresentations and outright lies
 
AEON said:


So a gay man would automatically know that I wasn't gay? How so?



perhaps because he's in the marines with you and it's a fairly safe assumption, AND there's a thing called gaydar.

is that really what the fear is? someone might think you're gay?
 
AEON said:


how is one clear about their sexuality. Are you admitting there are some "stereotypical" traits of homosexual males?



it's beginning to look like homophobia is a "stereotypical" traight of heterosexual marine.
 
AEON said:


Just a small correction. We are losing a war to the Democrats.

Yes, because of people thinking like this.

As long as you are waging a useless and outright stupid war against yourself, based on really nothing, you can't defeat any enemy from the outside.

Democrats aren't hating you, Democrats aren't going to kill you, and Democrats aren't wanting in any way their own country going down.
They share basically the same values, philosophy and way of life.
Stop ignoring this and focus on the real enemy.

When you make gays and Democrats your personal enemy it's no wonder that you are destracted all the time. Keep a clear mind, focus on the right issue, and stop fooling yourself.
 
BonosSaint said:
If you don't cut it, then you don't cut it. If you do, you do. No dummy down, no variations in strength, endurance (IF those things matter) Use the best skills and be creative in the use of the skills.

I can accept this.

BonosSaint said:

By the way, very nice picture, AEON. How did your drill go? And if you are deployed, I wish you safety.

Thanks. Drill went well. Thanks for asking. I had to do a presentation on the 5 Paragraph Operation Order and I used clips from the movie "Gettysburg" to hi-light my points.

If I get deployed the hardest part will be leaving my family for a year plus. Missing out on a year of memories is a tough thing to sacrifice. But if men like me don't go - who will?
 
Irvine511 said:




perhaps because he's in the marines with you and it's a fairly safe assumption, AND there's a thing called gaydar.

is that really what the fear is? someone might think you're gay?

I was actually setting him up as a "straw man" to point out that we do in fact use stereotypes.
 
Ormus said:


I'm reminded that one should never judge a book by its cover.

If I am a monster, then I am a monster that is willing to put his life on the line for you...
 
AEON said:


If I get deployed the hardest part will be leaving my family for a year plus. Missing out on a year of memories is a tough thing to sacrifice. But if men like me don't go - who will?

and this makes me angry

we may disagree on many things

but, I have no respect for the way this war is being wage

and i fear that your one year can very easily be stop lossed or whatever the f*ck those slime bags want to call it

and you be there 18- 24 months!

you and your family deserve better

and god forbid, if you get injured, the lack of quality health care this administration is giving to vets if worse than criminal

are you aware they have outsource the veteran "outpatient" services to some scum bag company that is being ran by an ex-Haliburton exec.

They love the billion dollar contracts
they just don't want to part with the money once they get the greedy hands on it.
 
AEON said:
If I am a monster, then I am a monster that is willing to put his life on the line for you...

I shall defer judgment of that to God.

But I believe that that old adage would be useful for you, as well. There's some women and gay people out there who could kick your ass. We should all be judged on the basis of our merits, rather than on the basis of who we are.

I find it unfortunate that you cannot accept that.
 
AEON said:


If I am a monster, then I am a monster that is willing to put his life on the line for you...



AEON, i admire your bravery and i respect your willigness to enlist in the armed forces, but, please, and i say this with all respect, you are not fighting for me in Iraq.

in Afghanistan, maybe; certainly in Normandy, Iwo Jima, Bastogne, the Somme, Gettysburg, and Yorktown.

i support you and want you to come home safe, but never for a second do i think our national security is at stake in Iraq.

it never was.

please be safe.
 
AEON said:


If I am a monster, then I am a monster that is willing to put his life on the line for you...



and you won't accord a gay person the same rights you take for granted.

who's freedom are you fighting for?
 
AEON said:


If I am a monster, then I am a monster that is willing to put his life on the line for you...

let's be honest

when you are over there

you will tell yourself you are doing it for your children and your wife

not some gay man that you would not even want to be a member of your health club
 
Ormus said:


I shall defer judgment of that to God.

But I believe that that old adage would be useful for you, as well. There's some women and gay people out there who could kick your ass. We should all be judged on the basis of our merits, rather than on the basis of who we are.

I find it unfortunate that you cannot accept that.


I admit - I was beat up by a girl when I was in first grade. Of course, she was a in 6th grade...it still sucked.

At no time was I speaking about personal worth. No life is worth more than any other life. I have been arguing all along about what is optimal for the military (specifically the Infantry).
 
deep said:



not some gay man that you would not even want to be a member of your health club

I shower in a stall alone. There is no problem.
 
Vincent Vega said:


I think this reception for gays would change pretty soon when laws were changed. Now that no one really "knows" how it would be like many people can't think of having a gay in the rows. But soon after they opened up, it would become normal with most.
There are always people that would remain homophobe, or just intolerant, or just feel uncomfortable (I wouldn't condemn everybody right away for that). But the majority would see that there is nothing special.

I still don't think I'm too wrong there ;)
 
AEON

great news

your next Comander in Chief

will resolve this issue for you. :up:

Clinton Opposes Don't-Ask, Don't Tell

By DEVLIN BARRETT
Associated Press
March 5, 2007 posted 12:49 pm EST


WASHINGTON (AP) - Senator Clinton, Democrat of New York. told the nation's leading gay rights group in an unpublicized speech that she wants a partnership with gays if elected president.

Mrs. Clinton also said she opposes the "don't ask, don't tell" policy regarding gays in the military that was instituted during her husband's presidency.

"I am proud to stand by your side," Mrs. Clinton said in a keynote speech Friday to the Human Rights Campaign.
 
AEON said:


I suppose you mean that you think there should be ZERO discrimination of ANY kind? So the NBA should be forced to allow 4 foot 3 inch Centers because to deny them the chance to play and earn millions is discriminatory? How about MLB pitcher without both arms?

Not all discrimination is the same.

All discrimination is the same. How the hell can you say otherwise? Your examples are ridiculous. They don't prove any point or back up your claims one iota. Discrimination is removal of ones rights without due cause.
You dont really need this explained, do you?
 
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