Dolce And Gabbana 'Fantasy Rape' Ad - Page 3 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 03-08-2007, 04:38 PM   #31
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
FitzChivalry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: At the bottom of the ocean, in the deepest sea
Posts: 6,300
Local Time: 12:18 PM
Re: Dolce And Gabbana 'Fantasy Rape' Ad

Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen


Kim Gandy: " . . . I don't want my two middle school daughters internalizing images which objectify women and I especially don't want their male friends internalizing them."
I agree with this sentiment. I think the real potential harm in advertising like this is to children and teens who haven't sexually matured yet.

As is evidenced by all the intelligent discussion by the women posting in this thread (of course I'm assuming most of the women who have already posted are past their late teens/early 20s) "women" and "men", as oppposed to "girls" and "boys", are able to analytically view and digest an image of this nature. And mature women and men, drawing on their life and sexual experiences, can either enjoy this ad, dismiss it, take it as offensive, or respond in some combination thereof.

However, children and teens IMO, don't have the life skills or tools to be able to stand up to the adverstisement, question the advertisement, or try to digest it in an analytical manner. The harm is that the girls and boys who have not yet matured will just accept an image like this without inquiry.
__________________

__________________
FitzChivalry is offline  
Old 03-08-2007, 04:55 PM   #32
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,493
Local Time: 02:18 PM
Re: Re: Dolce And Gabbana 'Fantasy Rape' Ad

Quote:
Originally posted by FitzChivalry


I agree with this sentiment. I think the real potential harm in advertising like this is to children and teens who haven't sexually matured yet.

As is evidenced by all the intelligent discussion by the women posting in this thread (of course I'm assuming most of the women who have already posted are past their late teens/early 20s) "women" and "men", as oppposed to "girls" and "boys", are able to analytically view and digest an image of this nature. And mature women and men, drawing on their life and sexual experiences, can either enjoy this ad, dismiss it, take it as offensive, or respond in some combination thereof.

However, children and teens IMO, don't have the life skills or tools to be able to stand up to the adverstisement, question the advertisement, or try to digest it in an analytical manner. The harm is that the girls and boys who have not yet matured will just accept an image like this without inquiry.


while i agree, in general, with this post and with the concerns echoed by the women (and most of the men) in this thread, i think the above posts brings up another point, though slightly tangental and not directly in reference to this ad which, i agree, is in poor taste.

i understand the desire to protect children from images that might be harmful, but where does that override my right as an adult to consume images that might be offensive to some but not to others? must everything in popular culture be child-friendly and kid-tested/mother-approved? do we stop whatever we do and think, "but is this good for the children?" do we have to run everything created by popular culture through a sort of metaphysical "mom" understanding and wonder if she'd approve or not?

or is it that this ad is likely going to appear in upscale, expensive, and meant-for-adults magazines like Vogue and Vanity Fair? do teenagers read these magazines? surely. are these magazines aimed at teenagers? certainly not. what teenagers -- aside from those on "My Sweet 16" -- could possibly afford Dolce and Gabbana? a teenager is not their audience, so why must D&G create ads appropriate for teenagers? and if teenagers, then why not for pre-teens? for kids? for children? for toddlers?

i suppose i'm wondering where responsibility for whatever "harm" that might be caused for an ad begins and where it ends. and why should adults have to be limited in the materials that they can consume -- again, not necessarily this ad, but then, i also think it's safe to say that even though this ad might depict a fantasy gang rape, or just a gang rape, a discerning adult knows that this isn't reality.

i suppose i wonder just how stupid do we think people are that someone is going to see this ad and think that a non-consensual gang rape is okay.

that said, why i dislike this ad is because it makes me feel uncomfortable, especially at the clearly out-of-whack male/female power balance/imbalance. i think it's creepy, and suggestive of something gross, but it does not in any way validate or contradict anything i've already thought.

why should we assume that anyone else is different?
__________________

__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 03-08-2007, 04:59 PM   #33
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,290
Local Time: 02:18 PM
Re: Re: Dolce And Gabbana 'Fantasy Rape' Ad

Quote:
Originally posted by FitzChivalry
However, children and teens IMO, don't have the life skills or tools to be able to stand up to the adverstisement, question the advertisement, or try to digest it in an analytical manner. The harm is that the girls and boys who have not yet matured will just accept an image like this without inquiry.
Actually there was a study done (I believe by the Canadian or American government but I'd have to look up the SCC case that cited it) which found that children under the age of 7 are not capable of distinguishing between reality and fantasy in ads, nor understanding the true purpose of the ad. However, at some point between the ages of 7-13 they start developing these skills and by 13, children are as good as your average adult at disseminating advertisements.

I could look it up if anyone's genuinely interested.
__________________
anitram is offline  
Old 03-08-2007, 05:30 PM   #34
Jesus Online
 
Angela Harlem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: a glass castle
Posts: 30,163
Local Time: 06:18 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by yolland

It's not a controversial claim from a psychology standpoint, at least if by 'rape fantasy' you mean an erotic fantasy of being overpowered sexually/had sex with against one's will ('one' in this case may or may not mean the actual woman doing the fantasizing, as some people fantasize about characters other than themselves). You'll need access to an academic database to read them, but in just a few minutes of keyword searching through some of our psychology databases here I found studies addressing this topic from Zurbriggen & Yost; Bond & Mosher; Strassberg & Lockerd; Pelletier & Herold; and Knafo & Jaffe. I glanced at only the summaries for these; the latter three all found more than half the female subjects reporting fantasies of this type. The Zurbriggen & Yost one looked interesting because it addressed the fact that having such fantasies is not correlated with attitudes about real-life rape. That fits with what I remember learning about this topic when it was briefly covered in a psychology course I took as an undergrad, which is that the prevalence of these kinds of fantasies is commonly explained as a way of enjoying the idea of inspiring uncontrollable desire, without the real-life experience of being humiliated by having no control over the situation.

But I don't know that any of that is really relevant to the ad. I find it creepy and weirdly emotionless, as if they couldn't quite decide whether they more wanted 'drama' or just another artsy mishmash of beautiful oiled bodies lounging nonchalantly around. I wouldn't say it suggests that women enjoy being raped, people do all kinds of things that no one would actually enjoy in fashion ads, but it's certainly more unsettling than most. D&G claimed their aesthetic inspiration for this ad was 'Napoleonic' (early 19th cen. French) art, I suppose meaning people like Delacroix, Ingres, etc. who commonly painted densely peopled (and in Delacroix's case, often violent), narrative scenes with naked or seminaked women, iconic or 'realistic,' draped about the foreground. Generally I find it a bit grandiose when advertisers describe their work in that way, but then fashion designers do often see themselves as artists, so perhaps it's not so strange.

Spain actually has a law against depicting women's bodies in advertising in a way that's 'irrelevant' to the product, which strikes me as pretty extreme, but I guess that's why this ad first ran into major trouble there. I find it interesting that it ran in women's magazines in Italy, but in a men's magazine here. In any case, the ad's been pulled now in response to all the complaints, so end of story, I guess.
Liesje has now clarified. To explain what I was getting at, though, the lack of distinction between rape and dominatrix fantasies is too often blurred when there is in fact a whole psychological field of difference between the two. As far as sexual fantasies go, there are as many (probably) as there are individuals. Like you alluded to, it's not relevant. I did want to question why Liesje stated that 'lots of women fantasize about rape'. It strikes me as horribly incorrect on two levels. Firstly, that that as a statement is just not true, and secondly, if (as it was shown to be) it was simply harmless interchanging the terms of rape and fantasy, then yes, fantasies a bound. Anyway, I don't wish to pick at liesje's phrasing. She has clarified, and that is all great. I am well aware of the literature written about this topic, and am on my first full day of a glorious 10 week break from uni and these now dreaded online databases. If I have to look at one again, I think I could go sailing over the edge and, well, it won't be pretty! Nah, it's all good.

Back to the ad, though. There is a lot to find revolting about it. Whatever their aim was is a little irrelevant. Advertising agency and marketing goals are always second place to how something is received. If there is a large public outcry, then they have failed in whichever their original aim was. They've got no place in dictating someone doesn't have the right to find something offensive. They're selling something. Let the masses decide on their own personal moral laws.
__________________
<a href=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/angelaharlem/thPaul_Roos28.jpg target=_blank>http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...aul_Roos28.jpg</a>
Angela Harlem is offline  
Old 03-08-2007, 08:23 PM   #35
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
FitzChivalry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: At the bottom of the ocean, in the deepest sea
Posts: 6,300
Local Time: 12:18 PM
Re: Re: Re: Dolce And Gabbana 'Fantasy Rape' Ad

I have a friend, that's not on here, who is my same age (32) and is also an attorney, and I've been e-mailing with her about this, so I just thought I'd share her view:

I think that a) women most assuredly do have rape fantasies and b) that all fantasies are acceptable, as long as the fact that it is a fantasy is clear in your head.

But real rape is about power and control, not sex - many rapists don't acheive orgasm, and a very large number can't get hard.

Rape fantasies are about submission, and giving yourself permission to engage in activities that you wouldn't normally find acceptable.

I think real women (and men, for that matter) that have rape fantasies are very clear that they do not actually want to be raped. But if a hot guy wanted to pretend, as a role-playing game, that he was raping me, oh yeah, I'd go for that.



To some extent, I agree that shielding children is counter-productive -- I'd certainly rather that Kaya encountered that sort of thing when she was still young enough to ask my opinion. On the other hand, yes,I do feel uncomfortable with the fact that that ad is going to be seen by a lot of teenagers young enough to not really be able to analyze the connections between sex and violence.
__________________
FitzChivalry is offline  
Old 03-09-2007, 08:19 AM   #36
Blue Crack Addict
 
MrsSpringsteen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 24,984
Local Time: 02:18 PM
Ask any woman who has been raped if she fantasizes about being raped again

People confuse fantasies about overwhelming passion and desire with rape. The two have nothing to do with each other.

And anyone who is interested in this topic should read about Jean Kilbourne and her studies about the images of women in advertising.
__________________
MrsSpringsteen is offline  
Old 03-09-2007, 09:57 AM   #37
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,290
Local Time: 02:18 PM
Re: Re: Re: Re: Dolce And Gabbana 'Fantasy Rape' Ad

Quote:
Originally posted by FitzChivalry


Rape fantasies are about submission, and giving yourself permission to engage in activities that you wouldn't normally find acceptable.
This is NOT a rape fantasy. It may sound like semantics, but it is not.

Being a submissive participant with a dominant male or dominant males is something entirely different from not providing consent in a sexual encounter.
__________________
anitram is offline  
Old 03-09-2007, 10:00 AM   #38
Blue Crack Addict
 
MrsSpringsteen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 24,984
Local Time: 02:18 PM
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dolce And Gabbana 'Fantasy Rape' Ad

Quote:
Originally posted by anitram

Being a submissive participant with a dominant male or dominant males is something entirely different from not providing consent in a sexual encounter.
Exactly, and it seems that is being confused here. Being submissive or being dominated sexually is something you choose to consent to. Rape is not, under any circumstances.

And many men have fantasies that involve being dominated/being submissive.
__________________
MrsSpringsteen is offline  
Old 03-09-2007, 10:09 AM   #39
Refugee
 
dazzlingamy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: The city of blinding lights and amazing coffee - Melbourne.
Posts: 2,468
Local Time: 06:18 AM
I seriously think there is an extreme difference between 'baby can we play act tonight and you hold me down and i beg a little and then we get it on'
and having someone force themselves on you while you are terrifed out of your fucking mind and feeling completely overpowered to do anyhting else (and then the whole host of feelings that follow that)

Women may say they fantasize about 'rape' but i think their little fantasy is a million miles away from an actual rape.

I also do agree with Irvine about not having to 'kid coat' everything in society and having to worry about what their little impressionable minds can see - i don't think i should have to censor something purely because mrs mum doesn't want timmy to see it etc
__________________
dazzlingamy is offline  
Old 03-09-2007, 10:14 AM   #40
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 05:18 AM
If there was an instance where she said no, no but her eyes say yes, yes but it was done non-violently it would count as rape - given that the term is used for a whole spectrum of different situations is it hard to think that some fantasies would cross that line?
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 03-09-2007, 10:14 AM   #41
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,557
Local Time: 02:18 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by dazzlingamy

I also do agree with Irvine about not having to 'kid coat' everything in society and having to worry about what their little impressionable minds can see - i don't think i should have to censor something purely because mrs mum doesn't want timmy to see it etc
I agree. No, I wouldn't want kids seeing these ads, but I don't know any little kids that read the magazines they're published in, and if kids are, the parents should be more responsible instead of squashing out anything that might make them uncomfortable.
__________________
Liesje is offline  
Old 03-09-2007, 10:23 AM   #42
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,493
Local Time: 02:18 PM
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dolce And Gabbana 'Fantasy Rape' Ad

Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen


Exactly, and it seems that is being confused here. Being submissive or being dominated sexually is something you choose to consent to. Rape is not, under any circumstances.

And many men have fantasies that involve being dominated/being submissive.




has anyone on here confused a domination fantasy with actual rape?
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 03-09-2007, 10:29 AM   #43
Refugee
 
dazzlingamy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: The city of blinding lights and amazing coffee - Melbourne.
Posts: 2,468
Local Time: 06:18 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
If there was an instance where she said no, no but her eyes say yes, yes but it was done non-violently it would count as rape - given that the term is used for a whole spectrum of different situations is it hard to think that some fantasies would cross that line?
well i do admit there is a whole grey area here, but i do think that saying 'no no' and your eyes saying 'yes yes' to your partner or someone you've discussed being dominated with is a lot different then really meaning 'no no' especially as you may think her eyes are saying 'yes' in your passion addled head.

I think if a woman (or man) says 'no i don't want to do this' case closed its all over get out and be on your way - continue and face the consequences.

but i am now getting off the topic
__________________
dazzlingamy is offline  
Old 03-09-2007, 11:42 AM   #44
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 08:18 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


has anyone on here confused a domination fantasy with actual rape?
I was wondering the same thing... Perhaps there's an assumption that "rape fantasy" somehow implies wanting to be raped in real life, though I don't understand why anyone would get that out of it.
__________________
yolland [at] interference.com


μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης
yolland is offline  
Old 03-09-2007, 11:44 AM   #45
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,557
Local Time: 02:18 PM
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dolce And Gabbana 'Fantasy Rape' Ad

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511






has anyone on here confused a domination fantasy with actual rape?
Not that I have seen. I think we're all preaching to the choir...
__________________

__________________
Liesje is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:18 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com