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Old 08-23-2007, 11:31 AM   #121
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You're sadly very misinformed, toscano. You're underestimating what cruelty to animals is, what that cruelty can lead to, and what it represents about the mind of the person who does this and acts of savagery like it. If you think for even one minute that cruelty to animals, while sad, is not a red flag for immediate alarm, then you need to wise up very fast.

I also disagree with him being supervised while learning about caring for animals is a suitable fix. This cruelty to animals isn't really about a dislike or even hatred of dogs. It's a perversion with satisfying bloodlust, control, the enjoyment of being witness to pain, to being the controller of pain, domination, etc, etc.
I agree with every word of this post.
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Old 08-23-2007, 01:24 PM   #122
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Personally I find that last "etc" unnecessary.

But everything else is spot on.
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Old 08-23-2007, 02:46 PM   #123
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ATLANTA -- The interim president of the NAACP said Thursday that the national chapter of the civil rights organization will not take a stance on the Michael Vick dogfighting charges.

But Dennis Courtland Hayes said he does not personally consider the Atlanta Falcons quarterback a victim.

Hayes is the interim president and chief executive officer of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. Asked about his personal opinion, Hayes told NBC's "Today" show, "Let me be clear: the NAACP does not condone dogfighting. This is a situation involving Mike Vick. I understand he has admitted wrongdoing.

"Michael Vick is not a victim in this situation; he was in control of his actions, and he is not a victim."

Hayes made the statements a day after the head of the Atlanta Chapter of the NAACP said the quarterback should be allowed to return to football after he serves his sentence for his role in a dogfighting operation.

Atlanta Chapter President R.L. White said Wednesday Vick is a human being who has learned from his mistake and should be allowed to prove he has learned from that mistake.

Hayes declined to say whether Vick should be allowed to return to professional football, saying that is an issue to be decided after he talks to the court and to his employer. But Hayes added, "He will have to be accountable for his actions."

Asked whether the amount of public support has been different because Vick is black, Hayes told NBC, "What we have to understand is what we're hearing expressed by some African-Americans is their anger and hurt, distrust in a criminal justice system that they feel treats them like animals."
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Old 08-23-2007, 03:48 PM   #124
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Some athletes seem to practice that sort of code about defending each other like some police do. That's a pathetic statement, he should be ashamed. His ignorance regarding animal abuse is bad enough, but trying to make Vick some sort of victim is inexcusable.

Making Vick a victim in that way is similar to what some of the athletes and public say about spousal abuse-it's interesting.




Pit bulls at Vick's house face deadline

By ZINIE CHEN SAMPSON, Associated Press WriterWed Aug 22

More than 50 pit bulls seized from Michael Vick's property face a Thursday deadline to be claimed. If no one comes forward, they could be euthanized.

Federal prosecutors filed court documents last month to condemn 53 pit bulls seized in April as part of the investigation into dogfighting on the Vick's property. No one has claimed any of the dogs, which are being held at several unspecified shelters in eastern Virginia, the U.S. Attorney's office said Wednesday.

The civil complaint filed by federal prosecutors does not name the Atlanta Falcons quarterback and is separate from the criminal case against him. But it does state the pit bulls were part of the dogfighting operation known as "Bad Newz Kennels," which Vick and three cohorts are accused of operating.

Also included in the document are detailed allegations about the nature of the animals' training regimen and the dogfights occurring at Vick's property at 1915 Moonlight Road in Surry County.

The government filed three public civil forfeiture notices in a Richmond newspaper to publicize the dogs' confiscation, and the deadline for claims is 30 days after the appearance of the final notice, filed July 24.

Federal prosecutors declined to comment Wednesday on the seized dogs. Typically, when confiscated property goes unclaimed, the government asks the court to have the items declared forfeited. In this case, U.S. District Judge Henry E. Hudson will make the final decision on the dogs' fate.

"There's no dispute over who owns the dogs," said Daphna Nachminovitch, a spokeswoman for People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. "Obviously this is not going to be a process where someone steps forward and says, 'This is my dog, can I have her back, please?' "

Though Hudson, who also is handling Vick's criminal case, will determine what becomes of the pit bulls, Nachminovitch said that it's likely that they will be euthanized because they're not adoptable as pets.

"These dogs are a ticking time bomb," she said. "Rehabilitating fighting dogs is not in the cards. It's widely accepted that euthanasia is the most humane thing for them."

Vick, 27, said through a lawyer this week that he will plead guilty to a federal charge of conspiracy to travel in interstate commerce in aid of unlawful activities and conspiracy to sponsor a dog in an animal fighting venture. He is scheduled to enter his plea agreement Monday and could face up to five years in prison.

Three Vick associates have pleaded guilty to the conspiracy charge and agreed to testify against him if the case went to trial. They said Vick provided virtually all the gambling and operating funds for the Bad Newz Kennels enterprise. Two of them also said Vick participated in executing at least eight underperforming dogs by various means, including drowning and hanging.

The locations of the shelters holding the dogs haven't been disclosed out of concern that the animals could be stolen, Nachminovitch said.

"They are a hot commodity in the world of dogfighting," she said.

"If no one comes forward, they could be euthanized."


Ironic that everyone is up in arms over Mike Vick's treatment of these animals, when in the end the dogs' fate is likely sealed.

I wonder if Vick were involved with cockfighting, rather than dogfighting, how much less society as a whole would care. While dogfighting and the way fighting dogs are treated in general is despicable, and I have no sympathy for Vick, I think people's "gut reaction" to animal cruelty based on the type/breed/species on animal is pretty hypocritical. Are furriers more humane than Bad Newz Kennels? I doubt it.
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Old 08-23-2007, 03:52 PM   #125
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Originally posted by CTU2fan



"If no one comes forward, they could be euthanized."


Ironic that everyone is up in arms over Mike Vick's treatment of these animals, when in the end the dogs' fate is likely sealed.

What would you suggest? Do you have experience dealing with fighting dogs in an animal shelter? They are not adoptable, not because they cannot be rehabilitated (that's debatable), but because no one would ever step forward foster them and rehabilitate them so they can pass temperament testing. Don't blame the animal shelter, they only have as much money and resources as people are willing to donate.

I'm missing the irony...
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Old 08-23-2007, 04:08 PM   #126
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What would you suggest? Do you have experience dealing with fighting dogs in an animal shelter? They are not adoptable, not because they cannot be rehabilitated (that's debatable), but because no one would ever step forward foster them and rehabilitate them so they can pass temperament testing. Don't blame the animal shelter, they only have as much money and resources as people are willing to donate.

I'm missing the irony...
The irony is that the "authorities" have seized these dogs, and the only way they can really deal with them is to euthanize them. I totally get that fighting dogs can't be adopted out...it's just sad, that once a dog is born into fighting he's doomed to a bad end, either from fatal injury in a fight, or being cruelly killed if/when he can't win fights, or being euthanized in a shelter because the fighting life is all he's ever known.

I wasn't criticizing the shelters at all, I realize I might have come across as critical and that wasn't my point. I do think younger dogs could be rehabbed (some anyway) but I can't even imagine how much time would have to go into it, and I'm not sure I'd 100% trust the dog in question in the end anyway.
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Old 08-23-2007, 04:16 PM   #127
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The irony is that the "authorities" have seized these dogs, and the only way they can really deal with them is to euthanize them. I totally get that fighting dogs can't be adopted out...it's just sad, that once a dog is born into fighting he's doomed to a bad end, either from fatal injury in a fight, or being cruelly killed if/when he can't win fights, or being euthanized in a shelter because the fighting life is all he's ever known.

I wasn't criticizing the shelters at all, I realize I might have come across as critical and that wasn't my point. I do think younger dogs could be rehabbed (some anyway) but I can't even imagine how much time would have to go into it, and I'm not sure I'd 100% trust the dog in question in the end anyway.
That's the key (bold). Say you are going to a shelter to adopt a dog for your family...are you going to choose the little Beagle who is house trained and has manners but his elderly owner died, or the pittie who was trained to fight and who enjoys the chemical high he gets from being aggressive?

I'm glad Vick took a plea b/c it means the dogs will be put down sooner. If he had gone to trial, they would have to be held through the duration. 50 large, powerful dogs bred and conditioned to be dog-aggressive locked up in cement boxes all day is no life.

I find it interesting how America as a whole can't decide whether a dog is a possession/personal property, or a being deserving of rights similar to people...
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Old 08-23-2007, 05:57 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally posted by CTU2fan


The irony is that the "authorities" have seized these dogs, and the only way they can really deal with them is to euthanize them. I totally get that fighting dogs can't be adopted out...it's just sad, that once a dog is born into fighting he's doomed to a bad end, either from fatal injury in a fight, or being cruelly killed if/when he can't win fights, or being euthanized in a shelter because the fighting life is all he's ever known.

I wasn't criticizing the shelters at all, I realize I might have come across as critical and that wasn't my point. I do think younger dogs could be rehabbed (some anyway) but I can't even imagine how much time would have to go into it, and I'm not sure I'd 100% trust the dog in question in the end anyway.
It's not really irony so much as the ugly result of Vick's (and dogfighters') activities. It's a shame - no dog is born a killer, but assholes like Vick basically seal their fate as soon as they bring them into the dog fighting world.
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Old 08-23-2007, 06:35 PM   #129
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you would think, with PETA's outrage that the organization themselves would at least try and adopt some of the dogs and give rehabilitation a try...
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Old 08-23-2007, 06:38 PM   #130
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Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase
you would think, with PETA's outrage that the organization themselves would at least try and adopt some of the dogs and give rehabilitation a try...
Quote:
Originally posted by Liesje

PETA seeks to kill all pit bulls.
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Old 08-23-2007, 06:53 PM   #131
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you would think, with PETA's outrage that the organization themselves would at least try and adopt some of the dogs and give rehabilitation a try...
PETA wants all pits and pit-types (pits, amstaffs, staffy bulls, probably cane corsos and dogos too) dead. Rehabbing pits like Vick's is likely impossible. When breeding for fighting, they are selecting for aggression, ANY aggression. Traditionally, human-aggressive pits were culled (killed as pups) because the American Pit Bull Terrier is supposed to be a family dog that ONLY is aggressive towards other dogs and can be easily called off by a human. Ethical breeders select for temperament and correct structure very particularly; people that fight pits underground breed dogs WAY out of the standard, pay NO attention to temperament other than the worst traits that they are selecting for. Dog aggression, high drive, sound nerves and courage are genetic. Combine that with a dog who is socialized from birth to be agressive and fight and you'll never win. The dogs can get chemical highs from fighting just like super-aggressive people can. The more a dog is allowed or encouraged to escalate, the more ingrained it becomes. Often, the bait dogs are adoptable (the bait dogs are younger ones used to train the fighting dogs), but a dog that has actually won fights...no way. Fighting pits are insanely conditioned working dogs so placing them in a home is never going to fulfill their needs anyway. Plus, the liability of any organization placing these dogs is insane, not to mention the liability of potential owners should the dog attack and kill a neighbor's dog.
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Old 08-23-2007, 08:52 PM   #132
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Quote:
Originally posted by Diemen
Personally I find that last "etc" unnecessary.

But everything else is spot on.
It was to illustrate a point!
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Old 08-23-2007, 09:10 PM   #133
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PETA wants all pits and pit-types (pits, amstaffs, staffy bulls, probably cane corsos and dogos too) dead. Rehabbing pits like Vick's is likely impossible.
Not entirely true. In the right hands, they can be some of the best dogs. It takes experienced handlers to thoroughly assess and temperment test them, and to then screen potential owners to find a suitable match. It would take a very experienced pit bull owner to handle them and to take on the responsibility, I certainly wouldn't recommend a former fighting dog to a first time dog owner or even first time pit bull owner. Yes, some of these dogs are warped beyond rehabilitation, but some are completely sound, despite their violent history.

The man I bought my pup from had two females, one who was a rescued fighting dog - scars, broken teeth and all. She was the most mellow animal you'd ever met . She watched happily as we approached and handled her 3-week old puppies.

It's a controversial issue, I know, but I've had first-hand experience with many of these dogs. They're actually quite remarkable when you get to know them.

Oh, and PETA

Apologies if this post is all over the place. I'm tired, but I tried to make as much sense as I could
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Old 08-23-2007, 09:15 PM   #134
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Kaf's pit bull, Evie is a sweetie! Almost too affectionate at times, she could slobber you do death!!

Bad misguided owners end up with bad dogs no matter what the breed. I have seen some really evil small dogs who would chew every digit off your hand given the chance.
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Old 08-23-2007, 09:22 PM   #135
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They're banned over here and it's illegal to own an American Pitbull, due to combined poor breeding which has seen too many enter the country with behavioural problems, and owners not being equipped to handle such a breed sufficiently.
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