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Old 08-21-2007, 07:44 PM   #91
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Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen


Humanity is judged by how we treat the defenseless, be they human or animal. And by how we punish those who mistreat them.
Yes. Thank you. The whole "it's not like it was a person he killed" attitude is crap. Cruelty is cruelty is cruelty.
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Old 08-21-2007, 07:52 PM   #92
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I don't get the people who want him to work in a humane society or other shelter. Why would you want to do that to the animals there? Do you really think he's not going to be cruel to the animals where he deals with them? I can maybe see making him do some of the more nasty grunt work when there are no animals around, but personally I don't think he should be allowed to have anything at all to do with animals again.
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Old 08-21-2007, 08:11 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen


Humanity is judged by how we treat the defenseless, be they human or animal. And by how we punish those who mistreat them.
I really agree with that.

This guy's career is pretty much dead, ban or no ban. He should voluntarily retire before he meets up with a player who really adores dogs.

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Originally posted by toscano

What he did was horrible, but it's not like he took a HUMAN life.......
Why do they even have to be compared? No, dogs, pets, and animals aren't human. They're on a different level, but it's still critical to deal with all creatures in a respectful way. We eat animals, hunt them, and utilize them in our diets, but most of this is done with the intent to further humankind.

Abject cruelty is another matter entirely. As others have said, it strips humanity, and reduces our relationship with animals to something hateful. That's something that needs to be addressed.

Quote:
Originally posted by indra
I don't get the people who want him to work in a humane society or other shelter. Why would you want to do that to the animals there? Do you really think he's not going to be cruel to the animals where he deals with them? I can maybe see making him do some of the more nasty grunt work when there are no animals around, but personally I don't think he should be allowed to have anything at all to do with animals again.
He needs some sort of cognitive therapy before that. A breakthrough of some kind. Maybe he was beaten as a child...who knows? He's got major issues.
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Old 08-21-2007, 08:31 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally posted by indra
I don't get the people who want him to work in a humane society or other shelter. Why would you want to do that to the animals there? Do you really think he's not going to be cruel to the animals where he deals with them? I can maybe see making him do some of the more nasty grunt work when there are no animals around, but personally I don't think he should be allowed to have anything at all to do with animals again.
I don't know, I think being in a setting where he has to learn how to care for animals might change his perspective. Whereas, where he used to abuse the animals themselves and be done with them, if he worked with the spca he'd HAVE to care for an animal that has been abused. He might even grow attached to one after having to care for it. I think doing something where he is supposed to help animals who may end up there because of other cruel people just like him might make him rethink himself and the way he treats animals.
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Old 08-21-2007, 08:56 PM   #95
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Originally posted by unico

I don't know, I think being in a setting where he has to learn how to care for animals might change his perspective. Whereas, where he used to abuse the animals themselves and be done with them, if he worked with the spca he'd HAVE to care for an animal that has been abused. He might even grow attached to one after having to care for it. I think doing something where he is supposed to help animals who may end up there because of other cruel people just like him might make him rethink himself and the way he treats animals.
I don't see it that way. I see it more akin (but obviously to a much lesser degree) to making a rapist work in a rape crisis center. Or a child abuser in a daycare center. The very thought of that makes me want to puke. You don't think he knew what he was doing was cruel? I believe people who do that know full well what they are doing -- they just get off on it. He can change if he wants to, but no way should an already abused or neglected animal have to be his guinea pig.
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Old 08-21-2007, 08:59 PM   #96
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I'm sure he knew what he was doing was wrong. But at the same time, what enabled him to do such horrid things was that he doesn't care about these animals. I dunno...I just thought that if he HAD to take care of them he'd change his perspective. Instead of getting paid to torture them, he'd get paid to take care of them.

I see your point. But I'm also naive and hopelessly idealistic when it comes to giving people second chances. I know it is probably irrational, but it seemed like a good idea to me.

It's not like he'd be trusted to be completely alone with these animals. Of course he'd be under supervision. At least, that is how I saw it.
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Old 08-21-2007, 09:12 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally posted by angelordevil



Why do they even have to be compared? No, dogs, pets, and animals aren't human. They're on a different level, but it's still critical to deal with all creatures in a respectful way. We eat animals, hunt them, and utilize them in our diets, but most of this is done with the intent to further humankind.

Abject cruelty is another matter entirely. As others have said, it strips humanity, and reduces our relationship with animals to something hateful. That's something that needs to be addressed.

Why ? Because like it or not, the impact of cruelty to animals is not the same as th eimpact on cruelty to humans. There ARE orders of magnitude at work here. Taking a human life in my book is orders of magnitude worse.

Using your logic and taking it a step further, swatting a fly, spraying ants, stepping on a spider who isn't hurting anyone except your aesthetic or getting your house tented are acts of cruelty also.

I hope Vick goes to jail, for a long time. I just think it's a travesty that the NFL takes this more seriously than they did Leonard Little or Lawrence Phillips.
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Old 08-21-2007, 09:13 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally posted by unico


I don't know, I think being in a setting where he has to learn how to care for animals might change his perspective. Whereas, where he used to abuse the animals themselves and be done with them, if he worked with the spca he'd HAVE to care for an animal that has been abused. He might even grow attached to one after having to care for it. I think doing something where he is supposed to help animals who may end up there because of other cruel people just like him might make him rethink himself and the way he treats animals.
Exactly...he needs to form some form of emotional attachment. Maybe he's actually closer to that than he's shown.

I could be suffering from naivety, but I believe everyone has the possibility of realizing where they've gone wrong. Who knows what events transpired to turn him into the 'ugly' human the world sees? I'm not an expert, but I'm sure in many cases such acts are the results of repeated patterns of behavior--if not practiced, then witnessed. For example, maybe as a child, he grew up in an environment where animal abuse was accepted as 'normal.' That would never excuse him, of course, but it would help us understand him, and others like him.

Quote:
Originally posted by unico

I see your point. But I'm also naive and hopelessly idealistic when it comes to giving people second chances. I know it is probably irrational, but it seemed like a good idea to me.
I had my reply typed before I read your comment above...great minds. Or naive minds.
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Old 08-21-2007, 09:37 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally posted by toscano


Why ? Because like it or not, the impact of cruelty to animals is not the same as th eimpact on cruelty to humans. There ARE orders of magnitude at work here. Taking a human life in my book is orders of magnitude worse.

Using your logic and taking it a step further, swatting a fly, spraying ants, stepping on a spider who isn't hurting anyone except your aesthetic or getting your house tented are acts of cruelty also.
You seem bent on drawing black & white dividing lines, which I don't think is possible. 'Just a dog, not a human...therefore five years jail-time.' I'm not using that line of thinking at all. That simply diminishes what he's done, and the ramifications for further cruelty. The lines are blurred, and someone who commits this type of crime definitely has the potential to be hateful and hurtful to other humans.

Insects? That's an easy one. Or easier. For the most part, we only hunt insects down for a good squishing when they pose a direct or perceived threat to our health, safety, or happiness. There's a HUGE difference in that kind of reactionary, impulse behaviour and deliberately tracking down an innocent animal for slaughter.
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Old 08-21-2007, 09:51 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally posted by angelordevil


You seem bent on drawing black & white dividing lines, which I don't think is possible. 'Just a dog, not a human...therefore five years jail-time.' I'm not using that line of thinking at all. That simply diminishes what he's done, and the ramifications for further cruelty. The lines are blurred, and someone who commits this type of crime definitely has the potential to be hateful and hurtful to other humans.

Insects? That's an easy one. Or easier. For the most part, we only hunt insects down for a good squishing when they pose a direct or perceived threat to our health, safety, or happiness. There's a HUGE difference in that kind of reactionary, impulse behaviour and deliberately tracking down an innocent animal for slaughter.
We can agree to disagree here

I see what Vick has done as cruel and despicable, but it's all relative and what the likes of Little has done is infintely worse. I guess our barometers just have different scales.

As for the "potential" to harm a human, well, minority Report was a great movie, but pre-crime isn't quite here yet. You can't jail him longer on potential.
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Old 08-21-2007, 10:14 PM   #101
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Originally posted by toscano


We can agree to disagree here

As for the "potential" to harm a human, well, minority Report was a great movie, but pre-crime isn't quite here yet. You can't jail him longer on potential.
We'll agree...and I'm definitely not suggesting 'pre-crime.' But I really hate when people say just a dog, or insinuate it, because it creates an environment where horrible actions are tolerated because of classification.

A few months ago, I witnessed a dog get struck by a car on my street. The driver was going at least 100 kilometers per hour in a 30 km zone. The dog died in my arms, and I've thought about him every night since it happened. I've also thought about the owners he never returned home to that night. Just a dog, but the same mindset, the same ignorance and same behaviour could have equally harmed a child.
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Old 08-22-2007, 02:31 AM   #102
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As reported by the US Presswire, one NFL Manager said the following:

“If he goes to prison, time will pass,” said the general manager, who spoke before news of a potential Vick plea agreement and asked not to be identified, claiming the NFL has asked current team officials not to publicly comment on the Vick case. “Months or years will pass, if he does go to jail. If he went to jail, and then left prison down the road, he’d still be relatively young, and there’d be a line of 15 to 20 teams waiting to sign him. Trust me on that. Teams are going to say, ‘F— PETA. F— the bad pub. This guy is one of the most talented players of the last 10 years. I’ll take my chances.’





I think he'll be back.
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Old 08-22-2007, 08:58 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally posted by toscano


Why ? Because like it or not, the impact of cruelty to animals is not the same as th eimpact on cruelty to humans. There ARE orders of magnitude at work here. Taking a human life in my book is orders of magnitude worse.
It's not just about cruelty, though. Dogs bred to fight are extremely dangerous to people in the community. Dog fighting goes hand-in-hand with gambling, drugs, and other illegal activities. Typically, dogs bred and trained for fighting don't receive the proper (and in some locales, required) vaccines necessary to protect themselves, other dogs, and people from certain diseases and conditions. All of these things are punishable by law even without torturing and killing dogs.

I'm not sold on him being forced to work in an animal shelter. I work in one voluntarily and if you don't have a certain level of animal sense and experience, you will do more harm than good. I would not at all be comfortable working along side someone like him and if I were forced to, I'd find another organization.
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Old 08-22-2007, 05:32 PM   #104
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Originally posted by Canadiens1160
As reported by the US Presswire, one NFL Manager said the following:

“If he goes to prison, time will pass,” said the general manager, who spoke before news of a potential Vick plea agreement and asked not to be identified, claiming the NFL has asked current team officials not to publicly comment on the Vick case. “Months or years will pass, if he does go to jail. If he went to jail, and then left prison down the road, he’d still be relatively young, and there’d be a line of 15 to 20 teams waiting to sign him. Trust me on that. Teams are going to say, ‘F— PETA. F— the bad pub. This guy is one of the most talented players of the last 10 years. I’ll take my chances.’





I think he'll be back.

michael vick is a vastly over-rated player who's entire ability is based around his athleticism... after spending two seasons in jail, his athleticism will be hurt considerably, leaving a quick inaccurate quarterback as opposed to a blazingly fast inaccurate quarterback.

i don't doubt that someone will work him out... but i doubt it'll last very long.
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Old 08-22-2007, 07:30 PM   #105
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Originally posted by unico
I'm sure he knew what he was doing was wrong. But at the same time, what enabled him to do such horrid things was that he doesn't care about these animals. I dunno...I just thought that if he HAD to take care of them he'd change his perspective. Instead of getting paid to torture them, he'd get paid to take care of them.

I see your point. But I'm also naive and hopelessly idealistic when it comes to giving people second chances. I know it is probably irrational, but it seemed like a good idea to me.
I get what you're saying, but I think he has a screw loose.. a chip missing or whatever. Something's not right in him that he could do what he did, so I don't think a bit of volunteering is going to turn that around I think it goes deeper than that.
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