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Old 09-04-2007, 04:55 PM   #181
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Originally posted by LarryMullen's_POPAngel

So what, if he had played for the Jets her attitude would have been different?
No, if he grew up there she would have felt different.

Anyways, it doesn't matter where he comes from or whether it's part of the culture, it's illegal crap that's not justifiable. It's cruelty towards animals.

Tolerance shouldn't go that far as to defend any crimes.
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Old 09-04-2007, 06:23 PM   #182
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Goldberg pointed out that Vick was raised in the South.

"This is part of his cultural upbringing," said Goldberg.
Eh. Well, U2dem or joyfulgirl could perhaps comment on this more meaningfully than I could, but it kind of sounds like nonsense to me. According to the ASPCA link anitram provided earlier, dogfighting isn't "more common" in any one particular region or metro type (inner city-vs.-rural) than others, and furthermore, it first became widespread (in the US) in the late-19th and early-20th century urban Northeast--often using dogs imported from Ireland or England--and spread from there to other regions of the country. True, by midcentury it was more widespread in the rural South, since animal cruelty laws there weren't as stringent (yet), but in more recent decades it's simultaneously become less widespread and also more geographically and demographically diffuse. When I was growing up in rural Mississippi (and I'm almost a decade older than Vick), I did hear a few times about dogfights locals had attended in other towns and cities in our vicinity, but I'd hardly describe it as a local "cultural tradition" in the same way as, say, hunting or blues festivals or a church fish fry, and it definitely had a stigma attached to it--not so much on account of the "blood sport" aspect as because there was this idea that seedy people frequent that kind of thing, that there'd be lots of drinking and brawling there and you might get mugged or something. (For the record, most of the locals were poor black people and that's who I got these impressions from, so it's not one of those things where "seedy" is really just racist code for "black cultural traditions" and therefore it must be sleazy.) I actually remember one of our neighbors talking about how he'd seen a "real dogfight" once, I think in Biloxi, and that "it was kind of exciting, but I think it's a damn shame to waste a dog's life like that".

I will say, though, that most people in the area did not keep dogs as beloved "family pets"--if they owned one, it was either some tough, hardscrabble-looking mix-breed who lived outside and whose only role was to guard the property, or maybe a couple coonhounds who, again, lived outdoors and had the dual job of guarding the property and going hunting with their owners. You seldom saw people walking their dogs, playing fetch with them or hugging them, and most dog owners there would've died laughing at the sight of some frilly Maltese being carried out of a "dog grooming parlor." So it might be fair to say that there was somewhat of a "cultural" attitude that dogs are for working, period, which might've indirectly lent some support to the idea that dogfighting is a "sport"--albeit one with highly dubious social connections.

So, Whoopi (who was born and raised in NYC, and has never lived in the South) *might* have a point to the extent that maybe Vick's "roots" didn't equip him with quite the same automatic revulsion at the idea of dogfighting for "sport" most Americans would have...but, even setting aside the illegality of it all and the grisly "executions" he participated in, I find the implication of "that's just a Southern thing"--as if this were some much-loved Southern pastime that we all get misty-eyed over, or as if Southerners saw the criminalization of dogfighting (mostly in the '80s, in the South) as PC Yankee suppression of a little harmless down-home fun--overdrawn and patronizing. In any case, that's the law and it was enacted for a reason, so it shouldn't factor into his sentencing one way or the other.
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Old 09-05-2007, 09:29 AM   #183
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I heard yesterday what Whoopi said, that's total bs. Sad. I wonder if she would excuse slavery in a similar manner.
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Old 09-05-2007, 11:12 AM   #184
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I think she was doing it for attention. Not that that excuses it, but I think that was her motivation.
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Old 09-05-2007, 11:15 AM   #185
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Probably. She's not the first person I've heard attribute it to that though.

Slavery of course really was an entrenched and pervasive part of Southern culture and history...my point was I don't think dogfighting is.
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Old 09-06-2007, 09:48 AM   #186
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Originally posted by PlaTheGreat
"If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals."

"Sirius Black", - J.K. Rowling
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”

- Mahatma Gandhi
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Old 09-07-2007, 01:14 PM   #187
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^ I love these quotes. I had the one by Gandhi on my site not long ago. So very true.
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Old 09-07-2007, 01:53 PM   #188
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http://news.yahoo.com/edcartoons/patoliphant
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Old 09-09-2007, 03:37 AM   #189
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Originally posted by starsgoblue


Yes. Thank you. The whole "it's not like it was a person he killed" attitude is crap. Cruelty is cruelty is cruelty.
Better not ever step on spiders or swat flies then.
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Old 09-09-2007, 03:42 AM   #190
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Originally posted by dazzlingamy


it is a big deal because its fucking horrible - and i don't think i'd feel worse if it was two men fighting - in fact, i felt the same way when they had those 'bum fights' with the poor homeless guys who'd fight for money or alcohol.
Its scary to think there are people out there that want to watch that. celebrity or not - its a sickening horrendous thing!
I'd feel much, much, MUCH worse to see a bum fight. Seeing two sentient humans with personalities, memories, priorities, wishes, fears etc. etc. is infinitely worse than seeing a dog fight. I feel that anyone who feels differently has a screw loose. Humans are different than animals.

I think almost eveyone in here is being a hypocrite. Maybe if you're so, SO disturbed by unneded injury to animals you should walk on stilts through your yard so as not to crush a bug. And never swat a mosquito just because it's simply bothering you a bit. Our society has taught itself to put certain animals above others. Usually if the animal is cute and has a lot of personality it will be HORRIBLE to kill them. But killing cows for leather and meat isn't wrong at all. It's complete hypocricy.

I'm not saying dog fighting is in any way ok. I'm saying you guys love to pick and choose which animals are the important ones and which ones are dispensible. I think it's utterly ridiculous and disturbing that any of you could be as bothered by a dog fight as much as a human fight.
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Old 09-09-2007, 03:45 AM   #191
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Well each to their own. I think you are SO wrong, and can't really comprehend your arguement, but we'll just go round and round in a circle so lets just agree to disagree no matter how much i want to write a massive reply to you
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Old 09-09-2007, 06:36 PM   #192
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^^

^
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Old 09-09-2007, 06:36 PM   #193
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Originally posted by shart1780

I'd feel much, much, MUCH worse to see a bum fight. Seeing two sentient humans with personalities, memories, priorities, wishes, fears etc. etc. is infinitely worse than seeing a dog fight.

............

I think almost eveyone in here is being a hypocrite. Maybe if you're so, SO disturbed by unneded injury to animals you should walk on stilts through your yard so as not to crush a bug

Um, I'm not aware that humans breed and socialize insects to maul each other to death and bet drugs and money on the results.

I'm disturbed by dog fighting and no, I don't feel I'm a hypocrite. I volunteer my time at a shelter that takes in, rehabilitates, and adopts out dogs that have been used to bait and train fighting dogs. When/if I see a dog fight, I report it to Animal Control.

I suppose you sit outside of downtown slums and wait to take in bums that are fighting, or are you a hypocrite too?
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Old 09-10-2007, 09:38 AM   #194
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I think I see shart's point. In the grand scheme of things the guy from the Rams (Neil Little?) who killed somebody while DUI is worse than Michael Vick, and that story got far less attention than the Vick story, and Little didn't face the kind of scrutiny that Vick has, and his career wasn't in jeopardy while Vick's is. And that's true even after yet another DUI arrest. There is hypocrisy in the media's handling of these stories...and it isn't all because of Vick being the much higher-profile player.

That said, I don't think you can project hypocrisy onto anyone who eats meat while vilifying Vick. Eating meat is not comparable with torturing a dog for sport...they're just not the same. I suppose you could make a comparison between dog fighting and sport (not meat) hunting, and it's true that dogfighting isn't looked upon as "sport" in the same way that sport hunting is, and that's because, yes, people do form a mental hierarchy of animals...and generally dogs are at the top of the list. You'll get the same visceral reaction when you tell somebody that, yes, there are countries where eating dog is acceptable. So I guess that's hypocritical...but making an argument whose premise is "You wouldn't protest cattle slaughter so you're a hypocrite if you condemn Vick" is pretty much creating a strawman. Make a thread about cruelty in the slaughterhouse, or the fur industry, and I'm pretty confident most of the loudest anti-Vick voices here would react negatively in those threads too...
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Old 09-10-2007, 10:48 AM   #195
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Quote:
Originally posted by CTU2fan
and it isn't all because of Vick being the much higher-profile player.
it might not be all because vick is the higher profile player, but it mostly is.

two words... qyntel woods.

who is qyntel woods you ask? exactly.
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