Dog Fighting

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LarryMullen's_POPAngel said:

So what, if he had played for the Jets her attitude would have been different?

No, if he grew up there she would have felt different.

Anyways, it doesn't matter where he comes from or whether it's part of the culture, it's illegal crap that's not justifiable. It's cruelty towards animals.

Tolerance shouldn't go that far as to defend any crimes.
 
Goldberg pointed out that Vick was raised in the South.

"This is part of his cultural upbringing," said Goldberg.
Eh. Well, U2dem or joyfulgirl could perhaps comment on this more meaningfully than I could, but it kind of sounds like nonsense to me. According to the ASPCA link anitram provided earlier, dogfighting isn't "more common" in any one particular region or metro type (inner city-vs.-rural) than others, and furthermore, it first became widespread (in the US) in the late-19th and early-20th century urban Northeast--often using dogs imported from Ireland or England--and spread from there to other regions of the country. True, by midcentury it was more widespread in the rural South, since animal cruelty laws there weren't as stringent (yet), but in more recent decades it's simultaneously become less widespread and also more geographically and demographically diffuse. When I was growing up in rural Mississippi (and I'm almost a decade older than Vick), I did hear a few times about dogfights locals had attended in other towns and cities in our vicinity, but I'd hardly describe it as a local "cultural tradition" in the same way as, say, hunting or blues festivals or a church fish fry, and it definitely had a stigma attached to it--not so much on account of the "blood sport" aspect as because there was this idea that seedy people frequent that kind of thing, that there'd be lots of drinking and brawling there and you might get mugged or something. (For the record, most of the locals were poor black people and that's who I got these impressions from, so it's not one of those things where "seedy" is really just racist code for "black cultural traditions" and therefore it must be sleazy.) I actually remember one of our neighbors talking about how he'd seen a "real dogfight" once, I think in Biloxi, and that "it was kind of exciting, but I think it's a damn shame to waste a dog's life like that".

I will say, though, that most people in the area did not keep dogs as beloved "family pets"--if they owned one, it was either some tough, hardscrabble-looking mix-breed who lived outside and whose only role was to guard the property, or maybe a couple coonhounds who, again, lived outdoors and had the dual job of guarding the property and going hunting with their owners. You seldom saw people walking their dogs, playing fetch with them or hugging them, and most dog owners there would've died laughing at the sight of some frilly Maltese being carried out of a "dog grooming parlor." So it might be fair to say that there was somewhat of a "cultural" attitude that dogs are for working, period, which might've indirectly lent some support to the idea that dogfighting is a "sport"--albeit one with highly dubious social connections.

So, Whoopi (who was born and raised in NYC, and has never lived in the South) *might* have a point to the extent that maybe Vick's "roots" didn't equip him with quite the same automatic revulsion at the idea of dogfighting for "sport" most Americans would have...but, even setting aside the illegality of it all and the grisly "executions" he participated in, I find the implication of "that's just a Southern thing"--as if this were some much-loved Southern pastime that we all get misty-eyed over, or as if Southerners saw the criminalization of dogfighting (mostly in the '80s, in the South) as PC Yankee suppression of a little harmless down-home fun--overdrawn and patronizing. In any case, that's the law and it was enacted for a reason, so it shouldn't factor into his sentencing one way or the other.
 
I think she was doing it for attention. Not that that excuses it, but I think that was her motivation.
 
Probably. She's not the first person I've heard attribute it to that though.

Slavery of course really was an entrenched and pervasive part of Southern culture and history...my point was I don't think dogfighting is.
 
dazzlingamy said:


it is a big deal because its fucking horrible - and i don't think i'd feel worse if it was two men fighting - in fact, i felt the same way when they had those 'bum fights' with the poor homeless guys who'd fight for money or alcohol.
Its scary to think there are people out there that want to watch that. celebrity or not - its a sickening horrendous thing!

I'd feel much, much, MUCH worse to see a bum fight. Seeing two sentient humans with personalities, memories, priorities, wishes, fears etc. etc. is infinitely worse than seeing a dog fight. I feel that anyone who feels differently has a screw loose. Humans are different than animals.

I think almost eveyone in here is being a hypocrite. Maybe if you're so, SO disturbed by unneded injury to animals you should walk on stilts through your yard so as not to crush a bug. And never swat a mosquito just because it's simply bothering you a bit. Our society has taught itself to put certain animals above others. Usually if the animal is cute and has a lot of personality it will be HORRIBLE to kill them. But killing cows for leather and meat isn't wrong at all. It's complete hypocricy.

I'm not saying dog fighting is in any way ok. I'm saying you guys love to pick and choose which animals are the important ones and which ones are dispensible. I think it's utterly ridiculous and disturbing that any of you could be as bothered by a dog fight as much as a human fight.
 
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shart1780 said:

I'd feel much, much, MUCH worse to see a bum fight. Seeing two sentient humans with personalities, memories, priorities, wishes, fears etc. etc. is infinitely worse than seeing a dog fight.

............

I think almost eveyone in here is being a hypocrite. Maybe if you're so, SO disturbed by unneded injury to animals you should walk on stilts through your yard so as not to crush a bug


Um, I'm not aware that humans breed and socialize insects to maul each other to death and bet drugs and money on the results.

I'm disturbed by dog fighting and no, I don't feel I'm a hypocrite. I volunteer my time at a shelter that takes in, rehabilitates, and adopts out dogs that have been used to bait and train fighting dogs. When/if I see a dog fight, I report it to Animal Control.

I suppose you sit outside of downtown slums and wait to take in bums that are fighting, or are you a hypocrite too?
 
I think I see shart's point. In the grand scheme of things the guy from the Rams (Neil Little?) who killed somebody while DUI is worse than Michael Vick, and that story got far less attention than the Vick story, and Little didn't face the kind of scrutiny that Vick has, and his career wasn't in jeopardy while Vick's is. And that's true even after yet another DUI arrest. There is hypocrisy in the media's handling of these stories...and it isn't all because of Vick being the much higher-profile player.

That said, I don't think you can project hypocrisy onto anyone who eats meat while vilifying Vick. Eating meat is not comparable with torturing a dog for sport...they're just not the same. I suppose you could make a comparison between dog fighting and sport (not meat) hunting, and it's true that dogfighting isn't looked upon as "sport" in the same way that sport hunting is, and that's because, yes, people do form a mental hierarchy of animals...and generally dogs are at the top of the list. You'll get the same visceral reaction when you tell somebody that, yes, there are countries where eating dog is acceptable. So I guess that's hypocritical...but making an argument whose premise is "You wouldn't protest cattle slaughter so you're a hypocrite if you condemn Vick" is pretty much creating a strawman. Make a thread about cruelty in the slaughterhouse, or the fur industry, and I'm pretty confident most of the loudest anti-Vick voices here would react negatively in those threads too...
 
Headache in a Suitcase said:


it might not be all because vick is the higher profile player, but it mostly is.

two words... qyntel woods.

who is qyntel woods you ask? exactly.

Didn't/doesn't he play for the Knicks? And no I didn't look it up, but I think he plays for the Knicks and got busted for dogfighting...

And yeah, it probably mostly is about the stature of the player. The media attention anyway.
 
shart1780 said:
I think almost eveyone in here is being a hypocrite. Maybe if you're so, SO disturbed by unneded injury to animals you should walk on stilts through your yard so as not to crush a bug. And never swat a mosquito just because it's simply bothering you a bit. Our society has taught itself to put certain animals above others. Usually if the animal is cute and has a lot of personality it will be HORRIBLE to kill them. But killing cows for leather and meat isn't wrong at all. It's complete hypocricy.

As a Vegetarian and a strong believer in the rights of animals I agree completely with you here but trust me, it's a pointless argument....

Human society in general is based on hypocrisy. I mean really, other than the obvious (appearance and genetic make up) what is the difference between a pig and a dog?

Seriously, why do we eat one and not the other?
 
CTU2fan said:


Didn't/doesn't he play for the Knicks? And no I didn't look it up, but I think he plays for the Knicks and got busted for dogfighting...

And yeah, it probably mostly is about the stature of the player. The media attention anyway.

he did play for the knicks at one point, and was busted, while a member of the portland trailblazers, for very similar incidents that vick was busted for.

and the lay person has no idea who he is... because he's not a star.
 
Headache in a Suitcase said:
'cause some ooga booga caveman decided that bacon is good, where as fido meat, not so good. :shrug:

Thank you, that is seriously one of the best responses I have ever got to that question…

…and heaven forbid we actually go against what was decided upon by some "ooga booga caveman"...
 
elevated_u2_fan said:


Thank you, that is seriously one of the best responses I have ever got to that question…

…and heaven forbid we actually go against what was decided upon by some "ooga booga caveman"...

dog isn't horrible, but really isn't that great either, wouldn't order it if it was up against our traditional Pork/Beef/Chicken/Lamb or even most Fish. Strictly a novelty thing I had to do to be polite to my hosts on a business trip

The caveman in other cultures decided Fido WAS good enough to eat and still do
 
toscano said:


dog isn't horrible, but really isn't that great either, wouldn't order it if it was up against our traditional Pork/Beef/Chicken/Lamb or even most Fish. Strictly a novelty thing I had to do to be polite to my hosts on a business trip

The caveman in other cultures decided Fido WAS good enough to eat and still do

Technically ANY meat can be "tasty" if prepared correctly including human...

I always find it amazing that societal norms dictate as to what is acceptable and what isn't and no one ever questions this...

Dennis Leary said it best when he said we only spare the cute animals… And his summation of one of the causes was the best:

“Don’t eat tuna fish!”
“Why?”
“Because Dolphins are getting caught in the nets.”
“What about the tuna fish?”
“Fuck them, they taste good!”

I’ve taken this thread on a bizarre tangent though and I apologize for that, I am certainly not in any way trying to lessen the issue of dog fighting or anything…
 
My dog was attacked by a rottweiler recently, thankfully all that happened physically was an eye issue that went away and some ear cuts and nicks. It was terrifying and traumatizing, and made me even more angry and incredulous and disgusted that anyone can make dogs fight for "sport". Vick got 23 months today.

RICHMOND, Virginia (CNN) -- Michael Vick, once one of the highest paid players in the National Football League, was sentenced to 23 months in prison for financing a dogfighting ring and helping to kill pit bulls that did not fight aggressively.

Vick's stunning downfall from NFL superstar to disgraced dogfighting defendant culminated Monday in a 90-minutesentencing hearing in federal court in Richmond, Virginia.

Vick was dressed in a black-and-white striped prison suit and apologized to the court and his family, The Associated Press reported.

"You need to apologize to the millions of young people who looked up to you," responded U.S. District Judge Henry E. Hudson, according to the AP.

Vick acknowledged he used "poor judgment" and added, "I'm willing to deal with the consequences and accept responsibility for my actions," the AP reported.

Vick, 27, faced a maximum of five years in prison. Federal sentencing guidelines recommended a sentence of 12 to 18 months.

Animal rights protesters lined up outside the courthouse. Some carried signs with photographs of dogs, while others read "Dogs deserve justice," and "Report dog fighters."

Vick and three co-defendants still face trial on state dogfighting charges in Virginia. They are accused of torturing and killing dogs and promoting dogfights -- all felonies that carry five-year maximum sentences.

In his August plea agreement, Vick admitted bankrolling the "Bad Newz Kennels" dogfighting operation on his 15-acre property in rural Surry County in southeastern Virginia.

Vick also admitted providing money for bets on the fights but said he never shared in any winnings.

According to court documents, dogs that failed to show enough fighting spirit or lost matches were executed. Some dogs died by electrocution and others by hanging or drowning.

Co-defendants told prosecutors that Vick assisted in executing the dogs, and that they "executed approximately eight dogs."

After initially denying any involvement, Vick acknowledged participating in killing to dogs in his plea agreement with prosecutors.

The suspended Atlanta Falcons star quarterback publicly apologized for his role in the dogfighting operation and unexpectedly turned himself in on November 19 to begin serving his prison term early. He has been held in a state jail in Warsaw, Virginia.

Last month, U.S. District Judge Henry E. Hudson sentenced Purnell Peace, of Virginia Beach, Virginia, to 18 months in prison. Quanis Phillips, of Atlanta, Georgia, was sentenced to 21 months.

A third co-defendant, Tony Taylor of Hampton, Virginia will be sentenced Friday. He was the first to plead guilty.

Peace, Phillips and Taylor entered plea agreements last summer under which they agreed to testify against Vick, prompting the suspended Atlanta Falcons quarterback to enter his own plea agreement a few days later.

Vick agreed to pay more than $928,000 for the care of some 54 pit bulls seized from his property.

Prosecutors also have disclosed the extent of Vick's financial ruin. According to court documents, the Atlanta Falcons are attempting to recoup bonus money from his 10-year, $130 million football contract, Vick is in default on a $1.3 million bank loan for a wine store, and two other banks have filed suits seeking repayment of a $4.5 million in loans and lines of credit.

Vick's home in the Atlanta area is on the market for $4.5 million, prosecutors said in court papers. The Virginia home where the dogfighting operation was based, assessed at nearly $750,000, is on the auction block, according to reports published over the weekend.

Vick's attorneys last month requested a jury trial on the state charges. It is set to begin in April.
 
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